tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-88297342024-03-13T02:43:07.959-04:00The Wicked StageRob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.comBlogger1925125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-52870385538921776332023-11-02T09:19:00.005-04:002023-11-02T09:19:46.400-04:00L.A. Theater History: The Waiver Wars<p><span style="font-family: arial;"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhu-r_jo5tCUzqv6EZJaPLrLtPVYc5nRQZtjoscGJFzI1AqNHjqIiAof4VtfPZ7KkiFtQKRp6ow8hHTSHHh2vUEIvMv6urKJrBPekaKgHKhNVD333YGsQvqaHpLfhz2jaT4IIUKYmjvUK388vtQ783l-_MvTN7WDu23lYLITU3Ahf3Sjwb2d3mZ" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="500" data-original-width="666" height="300" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhu-r_jo5tCUzqv6EZJaPLrLtPVYc5nRQZtjoscGJFzI1AqNHjqIiAof4VtfPZ7KkiFtQKRp6ow8hHTSHHh2vUEIvMv6urKJrBPekaKgHKhNVD333YGsQvqaHpLfhz2jaT4IIUKYmjvUK388vtQ783l-_MvTN7WDu23lYLITU3Ahf3Sjwb2d3mZ=w400-h300" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><i>The seats of the Elysian Theatre on Riverside Dr., which in my time in L.A. was the home of the Colony Studio Theatre (later Knightsbridge). It was also the theater closest to my home in Echo Park, and I sometimes walked to it.</i></span></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">I often tell people that at least one ventricle of my heart is still in L.A., where I lived from the late 1980s until 2005, and in particular in L.A. theater, which was my main beat there. I had occasion yesterday to meet and chat with <a href="https://www.michaelabulkley.com/" target="_blank">Michaela Bulkley</a>, a young theater producer and consultant who worked for a time at the now-defunct L.A. Stage Alliance and has a keen interest not only in promoting L.A. theater in the present and future, but in its history, interests I share.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Of course, not a lot of L.A. theater history is documented, at least not in easily available form. Indeed, when Bulkley told me she'd read some pieces I wrote for L.A. Stage Alliance's old magazine, <i>L.A. Stage</i>, in 2009, about the history of L.A.'s 99-seat, a.k.a. "Equity Waiver," theater scene, I went to look for the stories online and couldn't find them except with reference to the Wayback Machine.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Obviously there's been a lot of water under the L.A. 99-seat theater bridge since then, much of it documented <a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/tag/l-a-equity-99-seat-plan/" target="_blank">in the pages of <i>American Theatre</i></a>, but I thought, as a service to the world, and to other current and future L.A. theater lovers like Bulkley with an interest in how we got where we are (and the ways our current moment rhymes with the past), I should repost the articles on this blog. They were released in two parts, so there are few details in the second piece that seem a bit redundant when you read it all back to back. But it's all here. A little background on the assignment itself is <a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-99-seat-plan-and-its-discontents.html">here</a>.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Without further ado...</span></p><h4 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><i>LA Stage</i>, </span><span style="font-family: arial;">May 2, 2009</span></h4><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: large;">Part I: Waging the Waiver Wars</span></h2><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>By Rob Kendt</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">If you’re a loyal Los Angeles theatergoer, we might preface the following story by saying: <i>Pay no attention to that plan behind the curtain</i>. After all, if you’re one of those lucky people in the know—those who have seen enough Southland theater to know that the work onstage here is as healthy and vital, and occasionally as disappointing, as anywhere else you might care to name—then you already know firsthand that there’s no qualitative difference between a good show in a 60-seat former tire showroom and good show at the Ahmanson. The alchemy of live performers, and the unique bond they create with and among live audiences, thrives without regard to venue.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">It even thrives without regard to the compensation or material conditions of its practitioners—and there’s, as Hamlet might say, the rub. If the stormy 37-year history of Equity Waiver (now known as the Equity 99-Seat Plan) proves anything, it is that when theater artists want to get in front of audiences, however small, they won’t take no for an answer—even from their union. What’s also clear is that the artistic richness, abundance, and diversity of L.A.’s small theater scene, which we’re fortunate enough to take for granted today, simply wouldn’t exist without the stubborn insistence of L.A.’s theater artists on their right to strut and fret their hours upon the stage.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Of course, you don’t need to know any of this to enjoy the next show you see at a small theater in L.A. But if you appreciate a theatrical tale of outsized passions and raging conflicts, the history of the Equity 99-Seat Plan offers plenty of drama.</span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>The Explosion Before the Storm</b></span></h3><p><span style="font-family: arial;">In the early 1970s, L.A.’s theater landscape was hardly booming. The Pantages was still a movie house; the Pasadena Playhouse, once the home of a prestigious theater school, had had its doors padlocked in a federal tax case; the future Geffen Playhouse was a furniture store. The Music Center’s two new theaters, the mid-sized Mark Taper Forum and the cavernous Ahmanson Theatre, formed a lonely beachhead in Downtown L.A.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“As best as I can remember, my impression as a New York actor coming to L.A. was that the only game in town was the Taper,” says Barbara Beckley, who would go on to become the founding artistic director of Burbank’s Colony Theatre. “I wasn’t aware of much theater going on in town. I do remember being at that meeting where the members voted in Equity Waiver.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Beckley refers to the historic meeting of July, 1972, at which West Coast members of the actors’ stage union voted to “reconsider” a proposal by the union’s Western Advisory Board to eliminate all Equity rules in theaters with fewer than 100 seats—in other words, to effectively waive Equity’s work and wage rules and allow its members to perform in small theaters without union protections. There were already several dozen such small theaters, mostly in the Hollywood area, at which actors not otherwise occupied with film or television work were getting onstage in unofficial, under-the-radar productions.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">As Tom Ormeny, now artistic director of Burbank’s Victory Theatre, recalls: “A group of actors went to Equity and said, ‘We all know this is happening. We think it’s time for you to create a waiver for LA.’ There were so many actors here, and because there was no other theater going on, they wanted to create stuff, and what was between an actor and a producer was none of Equity’s business. They decided work was more important than the money.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">That’s hardly a line of argument to warm the hearts of union leaders, Ormeny concedes, but he says, “It became apparent that there was going to be a major rebellion against Equity if they didn’t change the rules. They’d lose a lot of members.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Equity bowed to the pressure, issuing a Waiver on an “experimental” basis. But if this sounds like a tentative resolution containing the seeds of further conflict, it was. Take a look back at that verb “reconsider.” What rank-and-file members like Beckley may not have realized when they voted to waive Equity rules in that July meeting was that the proposal had originated in March—and had been soundly rejected by the union’s New York council. This division, between the union’s East Coast theater trade capital and the upstart actor-producers of L.A., would come to haunt L.A.’s small theaters in the decades to come.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">In the meantime, though, as Ormeny put it, “There was an explosion of theater.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Concurs Beckley: “Overnight, 99-seat theaters started springing up all over town.” Soon enough, with some actor friends, Beckley herself caught the self-producing bug, and before long they were running a 99-seat theater in Silverlake, where the Colony Studio Theatre would remain for 25 years.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“What drove it was that there was just nobody in town who had the wherewithal and the passion and the drive to make theatre work on any kind of large scale,” Beckley says, pondering the origins of what could justly be called a Waiver movement. “I don’t know if that was to some degree audience-driven, or culturally driven. I do know that a broad theater community happened in L.A. because Equity Waiver happened in L.A. Looking at it now, it’s clear that its effects were tremendous and far-reaching.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Indeed, by 1980, according to a study by Scott Henderson, the number of small theaters had increased to 124 theaters and 41 independent production companies from a mere 45 in 1970. Many ensembles and artists that are fixtures on today’s L.A. theater scene trace their beginnings to this first decade, from the Matrix to Colony to the Victory. And a few that had already existed in non-Equity form, such as East West Players, Company of Angels, and the Odyssey, were given new life and legitimacy by the Waiver.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Curiously, L.A.’s midsized theaters—hence theaters offering paying Equity contracts—also began to thrive in the ensuing decades, as the Taper achieved national fame in mid-1970s, the Westwood Playhouse opened in 1975, and the Pasadena Playhouse made a second entrance in 1986.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">This concurrent midsize-theatre health is another important fact to keep in mind as one traces the history of Equity Waiver, since the anti-Waiver argument is often made with the zero-sum logic that says that more non-paying theater somehow undercuts or drives away paying theater.</span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">His Least Favorite Year</span></h3><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Though Michael Van Duzer didn’t work at Equity when the Waiver was first ratified, he was on hand when the underlying tensions behind the Waiver erupted, in what would soon be called the “Waiver Wars.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">And he’s lived to tell: Van Duzer is still Equity’s representative to L.A.’s small theaters, and though tempers have cooled, he recalls the 20-year-old battles well.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“It was certainly the worst year of my life,” says Van Duzer of 1988, the year that the Waiver Wars broke out in earnest. They had begun quietly enough in 1985, when Equity took another look at the Waiver and its discontents.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“We had a meeting where we basically had a two-page document that says actors will be paid $5 a performance,” Van Duzer recalls placidly. “That proposal was taken to a membership meeting. At that meeting there was a lot of hysteria, with people saying, ‘The theaters will go out of business,’ ‘We won’t have any place to showcase ourselves.’ And the other side either wanted to curb Waiver or just had a distaste for professional actors getting paid nothing. There were a lot of eloquent speeches and a lot of hysterical screaming, so we went back to the drawing board.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Though the Colony was among the majority of small theaters with respectful work practices, Beckley concedes that some restrictions on the Waiver were probably in order.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“There was a show, <i>Bleacher Bums</i> at Century City Playhouse, that ran for years, and the actors didn’t make a dime,” Beckley recalls. “Under the Waiver, as long as you could make the rent, there were no rules regarding nudity, rehearsal time—you could do whatever you wanted. On the other hand, the actor owed nothing; he could walk away without penalty at any time if he felt unsafe.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Of course, without being exploited, an actor may develop strong loyalty to a production he’s invested time in, making such a no-fault bargain less simple in practice. “You can always say, ‘No, dear, you can walk out at any time,’ ” as Beckley puts it, “but who’s going to do that?”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">So, while L.A.’s small theater producers reluctantly entered informal talks with Equity to discuss amendments to the Waiver—talks complicated by the fact that many of these producers were also actors and Equity members, creating what the union saw as a conflict of interest—an enterprising young producer named Paula Holt was renovating a West Hollywood movie house called the Tiffany. She wasn’t aware of the brewing Waiver Wars—and had no idea what she was venturing into.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“My original intention was to try to build a midsized house, but my architect told me I didn’t have the footprint or the ceiling height,” says Holt, now an independent producer. “He said, ‘I can’t build a decent 350-seat house, but I can make you the best Equity Waiver theater complex in town.’ ”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">By 1987, the new Tiffany was ready to open one of its 99-seat stages with a play about Fatty Arbuckle starring Equity actors Kelly Bishop and Art Metrano. Equity, however, was troubled by the prospect of a state-of-the-art theater, not run by actor-producers, operating under the Waiver.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“I think the union, with directions from New York, was concerned that Off-Broadway shows would transfer from New York to a Waiver space,” says Holt now. So Equity filed an injunction against the actors, on the grounds that Holt had downgraded a midsized house to make her Waiver complex. (The old movie theater had indeed hosted intermittent performances by a satirical troupe, the Committee, but without a glance at Equity.)</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“It was a strange climate because of the Waiver Wars,” Holt recalls. “I assumed it was a cooperative environment, but it became very personal.” She says that Equity’s regional director, Edward Weston, told her, “I’m going to make sure nothing ever comes into your theater.” As Holt says, “That’s when I knew I needed a lawyer.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Holt won her case after six months of wrangling and sleepless nights (and the Tiffany would go on to enjoy an extraordinary 15-year run as one of L.A. preeminent theaters, big or small).</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">But the battle over L.A.’s small theaters had just begun: In the spring of 1988, a referendum on the Waiver was sent out to West Coast Equity members about the plan. The actor/producers who had been in talks with Equity had not been notified and felt blindsided by the move.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“I remember we were on a plane, and we got the notice that the referendum had gone out,” recalls Maria Gobetti, veteran Waiver warrior and co-founder, with her husband Tom Ormeny, of the Victory Theater. “And I said to Tom, ‘I guess this is war.’ It was very painful.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><br /></span></p><h4 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><i>LA Stage</i>, June 29, 2009</span></h4><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Part II: </span><span style="font-family: arial;">Waiver War Weapons</span></h2><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>by Rob Kendt</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">As anyone who follows international relations might tell you, a key weapon in a powerful player’s arsenal is simple recognition, or more importantly, the strategic withholding of same. By deciding which parties, organizations or even small countries it considers legitimate bargaining partners, a nation or bloc of nations can define the acceptable parameters of discourse and in many cases determine the course of a conflict—if indeed it admits there is a conflict at all.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Union organizers know this tactic well from the other side of the barricades, for very often the first obstacle they encounter, and the first battle they must win, is simply to be recognized by management as labor’s legitimate negotiating representative. So perhaps it shouldn’t be surprising that Actors’ Equity Association employed a similar hardball approach in the late 1980s when it faced a virtual insurgency of members opposed to the union’s tightening of small-theater rules in Los Angeles. By most accounts, the venerable stage union kept the upper hand over actor/producers by simply ignoring their demands and refusing, until cornered by a lawsuit, to hammer out a deal.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“The huge frustration was that Equity refused to negotiate with us,” recalls Laura Zucker, now executive director of LA County Arts Commission. In the ’80s, Zucker served as producing director of Back Alley Theatre in Sherman Oaks. As such, she co-chaired an ad hoc alliance of 99-seat theater producers, formed in response to Equity’s plan to rein in an unregulated—and very active—small theater scene.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“That was their primary tactic: not to meet, not to talk,” Zucker relates. “That’s why we brought the lawsuit alleging breach of covenant. And the lawsuit worked in the sense that it forced them to talk to us.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">That lawsuit was among the key battlegrounds in the infamous Equity Waiver wars, which raged from 1986 through 1988 and changed LA theater forever. Actors who were once guaranteed nothing for working in theaters under 100 seats would ever after have some basic protections, some limits on work hours, and a small monetary reimbursement for their hard work. Was the fight worth it? And what brought the contenders to the brink?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">As we saw in Part One of this two-part history of LA’s 99-Seat Plan, in 1972 Equity had granted its members a “waiver” to work without union protection or remuneration in theaters with fewer than 100 seats. As a result, the quantity of theater productions and companies exploded, with the roster of venues and independent companies roughly tripling within a decade.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">This startling growth—glut, some said—of live theater in LA had a dangerous flip side. Equity’s East Coast leadership had been skeptical of the Waiver from the start, allowing it only on the grounds, as 99-Seat Plan administrator Michael Van Duzer puts it, that it provided “a way for our membership to showcase themselves and get other paying work in film, TV or stage.” That actors-showcase rationale happens to be contrary to the impulse that has given rise to some of LA’s best theater. Contrary to its intention, however, the waiver sets up expectations of career advancement that a thousand tiny theaters in a spread-out industry town can meet only sporadically.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Indeed, as Van Duzer notes, the 1980s saw a plethora of alternative showcase opportunities spring up, from casting director workshops to “industry nights,” where agents and casting directors could watch a series of short scenes and enjoy a catered reception, all without having to endure “three hours of bad Shakespeare and then go out to find their cars had been broken into.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Perhaps unsurprisingly, anecdotal evidence also surfaced to suggest the Waiver had opened the door to abuse—including one notorious long-running comedy at a Westside venue where the roaches made out better than the actors. “The Waiver had no rules at all,” Van Duzer points out. “So if somebody had a complaint, like, ‘They made us work for 14 hours,’ we had to say, ‘It’s not a contract—you can leave the show.’ ”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">According to Van Duzer, actors who asked to waive union wages and protections started to wonder, “I’m not being seen by the people I want to be seen by, and this set costs how much?”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">It was probably inevitable, then, that the Waiver’s no-rules regime would change. In 1985, a two-page document outlining a new plan for LA’s small theaters was presented at an Equity staff meeting, with basic limits on rehearsal and performance times, working conditions and the actor’s tiny honorarium of $5 a performance. When the proposal made it to a member’s meeting in 1986, Van Duzer got a glimpse of the battle royale to come.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“There was a lot of hysteria—people saying theaters would go out of business and actors wouldn’t have any place to showcase themselves,” Van Duzer recounts. “On the other side, people either wanted to curb Waiver or just had distaste for professional actors getting paid nothing, saying this took us right back to the actor/managers that created the need for Equity in the first place. There were a lot of eloquent speeches and a lot of hysterical screaming. This clearly went to an emotional core.” Needless to say, Van Duzer sums up, “We went back to the drawing board.”</span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">It’s On</span></h3><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Clamoring for a place at that drawing board was a large group of theater producers who called themselves the Equity Waiver Theatre Operators Committee (ETWOC). These were the leaders of LA’s large, unruly, oft-acclaimed theater scene, including the Colony Theatre‘s Barbara Beckley, the Victory Theatre‘s Maria Gobetti and Tom Ormeny, the Matrix Theatre‘s Joe Stern, the Odyssey Theatre‘s Ron Sossi, and Back Alley’s Laura Zucker. Many of them, such as Zucker’s husband, actor/director/teacher Allan Miller, also happened to be Equity members-a technical conflict of interest that meant, although Equity was willing to hold non-binding meetings with EWTOC to hear their concerns, the union saw no reason to formally negotiate a new small theater plan with them.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">While EWTOC did this wooing dance with Equity, the union had another Waiver fire to put out. In 1987, a producer named Paula Holt opened the Tiffany, a new theater complex on Sunset Blvd., containing two state-of-the-art 99-seat spaces. Equity viewed this as an illegal division of one larger midsized—and hence potentially full-contract—theater in its jurisdiction. More privately, the actors’ union fretted that two sleek, professional-looking theaters operating under the Waiver would set a terrible precedent. Would producers with deeper pockets just exploit the Waiver as a cheap way to open their pet projects or import Off-Broadway hits?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">At the time, Holt wasn’t part of EWTOC’s struggle for union recognition and had no stake in the gathering Waiver wars. But when she sued the union successfully and won the right to keep the Tiffany’s doors open, the defeat only seemed to solidify the union’s resolve against the Waiver’s advocates.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">At least, that’s one way to explain what happened next. Tom Ormeny recalls a last-ditch attempt to make EWTOC’s case directly to the union’s East Coast brass.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“I flew to New York and went in front of the national committee and said, ‘I don’t want to sue my own union,’ ” Ormeny says. “We left the meeting and we felt pretty strongly they were listening to us.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Listening or not, Equity unilaterally decided in late March of 1988 to send a referendum directly to West Coast members, who handily voted to instate the new 99-Seat Actors’ Theatre Plan in place of the Waiver. To the folks at EWTOC, this was the last straw.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“We said, ‘OK, this is war,’ and we got a pro bono lawyer,” recalls Gobetti. The lawyer took the case, Ormeny says, because “he thought he could win it on breach of covenant. Without any attempt to negotiate, Equity had shut down the talks.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">In the ensuing volley of threats and counter-threats, newspaper op-ed pieces and contentious overflow meetings, both sides hardened their positions. EWTOC rechristened itself ATLAS (ostensibly an acronym for Associated Theatres of Los Angeles, though where that final “S” comes from is anyone’s guess), which later joined the Producers League of Greater Los Angeles to form Theatre League Alliance, a.k.a. Theatre LA (now LA Stage Alliance, the publisher of this blog). Some of this was mere positioning but most of it was sincere anger.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“When push came to shove, we started ATLAS. We said, ‘Equity is outdated, it’s a rhinoceros,’ ” recalls Odyssey founder Ron Sossi. “We even started doing auditions for our own actor members and we picketed the union.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">By the fall, though, the battles ended with a whimper. A grace period passed and the new 99-Seat Plan went into effect. The Waiver was history and most members of the erstwhile ATLAS, however grudgingly, signed onto the new system.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Not that they lost everything: that restraint-of-trade lawsuit ended in a settlement that included an important concession, as Van Duzer points out.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“The major change was that another committee would be set up with members of the 99-Seat community, which would meet a couple of times a year to discuss the Plan,” says Van Duzer. “And if the 99-Seat committee disagreed with any proposed changes, they would have the option of taking the case to our board. There was now an open path for a dissenting opinion that hadn’t been there before.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">It would be 12 years before the 99-Seat Plan was revisited or revised. “That tells you how deep the hurt was,” says Van Duzer.</span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">L.A. Exceptionalism</span></h3><p><span style="font-family: arial;">There’s been enough healing, however, that most veterans of the Waiver wars now speak of that time philosophically.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“As much as we fought the coming of the Plan in the ’80s, I believe that was the logical next step and evolution,” says the Colony’s Barbara Beckley.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">The unanswered question is how the Plan might evolve. Around the turn of the century, the Colony and a handful of other LA area theaters—East West Players, International City Theatre—made the leap to midsized spaces and hence to Equity contracts. It’s been quite a nail-biter, Beckley says, “The chasm between running a theater at a 99-seat level and with a contract—I don’t see how it’s possible now.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Though Zucker agrees the 99-Seat Plan has been a net benefit for area theater, she doesn’t think it was the best the producers and Equity could have done—or could still do.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“The irony of this whole situation is that both Equity and the producers wanted midsized theaters,” Zucker says. “We were all frustrated by the limitations of Waiver. Part of the dialogue we wanted to have with Equity was; how can we get from here to there without impediment? The leap from a Waiver situation to a full contract is so huge and so many people get lost in there. So part of the proposal we put forward was a way to allow people to tier up from 99 seats. Equity tossed that out and said, ‘We’re not going to create a tiered plan; you each have to talk to us individually.’ That was the greatest mistake they ever made.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Zucker still sounds frustrated as she recalls the old battles but she’s quick to add, “It’s really not too late. One could sit down with theater operators and come up with a way they could grow, that will incentivize theaters to start adding seats-it would be a progressive, creative plan and it won’t look like any other contract Equity has anywhere else.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">This is a recurring refrain in the story of the Southland’s small theater scene—what might be called Los Angeles Exceptionalism. The litany goes something like this: This sprawling urban mega region has, by some estimates, a few hundred thousand actors vying for a TV walk-on; it’s notoriously stingy with foundation or government support for theater; and though it’s among the top three theatergoing cities in the US, measured in ticket receipts, it is not by any stretch of the imagination a commercial theater capital.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Given the lay of the land, then, is the non-remunerative 99-Seat Plan a clever workaround that allows thousands of talented theater artists to ply their craft with minimal restrictions? Or is it yet another item in that list of reasons for LA theater’s second-class status?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Says Paula Holt, “You can’t understand the plan unless you consider it was established by actors, not by producers or theater owners. There was no need for union protection because there wasn’t anything at stake—you didn’t have the usual split between producer and actor because a lot of the producers were actors.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Sossi agrees. Like Holt, he’s heard the zero-sum argument that a glut of Waiver has somehow stifled the development of midsized theater—an argument that would have to ignore the relative health of the Taper, the Geffen, and the Pasadena Playhouse—but he’s not persuaded that LA’s actors would want it any other way.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“The alternative might be half a dozen midsize theaters where you still would only make a meager salary,” Sossi speculates. “The actors would rather have 130 theaters where they make gas money than six theaters where they can make crappy money.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">For Joe Stern at the Matrix, the real victory in the Waiver wars has been changing the minds of his foes.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">“Their whole thesis for 35 years was that if you don’t get paid, you have no dignity and you’re an amateur,” Stern says of Equity’s East Coast leadership. “But they’ve begun to get it—part of it is just attrition, and part of it is seeing our viewpoint. It’s now better than it ever was; consciousness has been elevated.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">As Equity’s Van Duzer puts it: “Even the most rabidly anti-waiver and anti-99-Seat-Plan people have realized that the way Los Angeles is, some form of this will always have to exist.”</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">LA theatergoers may not realize what struggles have transpired behind the scenes to keep the shows going on. But the next time you’re in an audience of 60 enjoying a great night of theater for around $25 a ticket, you might think to offer a silent tribute of gratitude (maybe even a spoken one, or a cashable one) to the fighters who’ve helped to keep Los Angeles theater as abundant as it is intimate.</span></p>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-71764484920233251732023-06-08T10:32:00.000-04:002023-06-08T10:32:00.148-04:00TBT: Jean Smart & Mary Steenburgen<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1tlrTM8P0xVW44OEoU-bnMYe8xTyW8IZlmf8fkdQDyIqsf_d-sqhwySVnLWUItfhcsE6uVnXdzAAm7EZkHKUHNE-bskQACYLCg2yB57QGtJHSSK5eJKihw-A1qUy46eAQJ7Um8393_FYtSVsveKyj6dBYlGqviSZJHJC4M7Et6yCu9UuOmQ/s2577/IMG_5243.JPG" style="display: block; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 1em 0px; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1182" data-original-width="2577" height="183" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1tlrTM8P0xVW44OEoU-bnMYe8xTyW8IZlmf8fkdQDyIqsf_d-sqhwySVnLWUItfhcsE6uVnXdzAAm7EZkHKUHNE-bskQACYLCg2yB57QGtJHSSK5eJKihw-A1qUy46eAQJ7Um8393_FYtSVsveKyj6dBYlGqviSZJHJC4M7Et6yCu9UuOmQ/w400-h183/IMG_5243.JPG" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><i><span style="font-size: x-small;">photo by Gary Leonard</span></i></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">When I was starting up <i>Back Stage West</i> back in late 1993/early 1994, I remember someone suggesting that we do something like <i>Interview </i>magazine—i.e., have one celebrity interview another. Hence was Actors' Dialogue born, though the emphasis wasn't so much on celebrities per se as colleagues who happened to be well known, and most often had a single project to promote together (though we also did our share of matchmaking: Our very first dialogue, between <a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2021/12/throwback-thursday-mrs-c-and-mrs-g.html">Marion Ross and Charlotte Rae</a>, wasn't tied to any project at all but was put together as a kind of dream date). I've posted a few of these recent years and plan to do more (i.e., <a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2023/01/samuel-l-jackson-and-la-tanya.html">Sam Jackson & LaTanya Richardson Jackson</a>, <a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2021/12/throwback-thursday-rupert-everett.html">Rupert Everett and Richard E. Grant</a>).</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;">These were always very lightly hosted and coaxed along by a reporter, which is how one memorable day I found myself in the presence of Jean Smart and Mary Steenburgen, who were both appearing in the West Coast premiere of Scott McPherson's <i>Marvin's Room</i>. The brackets in their exchanges below show a few traces of my nudging (I'm sure I asked them to compare notes on their training, for instance), but I think the results hold up well as a time capsule of these two, and of the industry they were part of, in the mid-'90s.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><b>Back Stage West</b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><b>Oct. 13, 1994</b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><br /></div><span id="docs-internal-guid-06585373-7fff-8966-b7fc-a5e9d6ba509f"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">ACTORS' DIALOGUE: MARY STEENBURGEN AND JEAN SMART</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 16pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">On Confidence, Training, and the Intangible</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Two actors best known for film and TV roles met recently at the home of a friend to talk about their return to the stage, in Marvin's Room at the Tiffany Theatre.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>Mary Steenburgen's </b>first film role was in Jack Nicholson's </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Goin’ South</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and she won an Oscar in 1980 for </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Melvin and Howard</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. Since then, she's appeared in such films as </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Time After Time</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Ragtime</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Parenthood</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Cross Creek</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">What's Eating Gilbert Grape? </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>Jean Smart </b>is best known for her role as sensible Charlene on the long-running CBS series </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Designing Women</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. She also played a retarded woman in the TV movie </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Yarn Princess</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and appeared in the films </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mistress </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">and </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Incredible Journey: Homeward Bound</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span></span></p><a name='more'></a></span><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean Smart:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I think that you automatically make an adjustment [going from film or television to theatre], just the same way you make an adjustment when you're talking to someone across the table or you're talking to someone who's in the next room, or you're talking to your child, or—do you know what I mean? I think it's just sort of a human thing; I don't think it's so dramatically different.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary Steenburgen: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">This [play] is really intimate. I find that the only difference for me is, besides the intuitive adjustment that you make, the bigger adjustments are the external ones. I don't have the same time clock that's born of experience on stage, as I do in film, just because I've done so much more film than I have stage. Though I started out in theatre, and trained for two years with Sanford Meisner, I did so much film. My idea of when I should be ready at a certain point, you know, is all based on film.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">So when I do a play now, I still feel like I'm getting my legs. I want to do everything right away—like I wanted to have my lines learned immediately, I want all of my props </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">now</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, you know. Whereas you're really relaxed about things: "No, we're in great shape, we're doing great!" I have to be told that we're doing great!</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, we're supposed to be backstage throwing up!</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I suppose that's a matter of gaining confidence from doing this. Besides, I tend to do things to scare myself just so I remember I'm alive. Some people drive real fast; I go on stage.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> [Doing a television series is] like doing a one-act play in front of an audience. It's an odd breed of its own. It's not quite like film, and it's not quite like theatre; it's very strange. I came out here in 1983, and I was doing a series. We were getting ready to shoot the first episode, and somebody said, "Who's leading the warm-up?" And I thought, "How weird!" I thought we were all gonna do like vocal warm-ups together, tai chi or something. I thought, "Oh, I didn't know they did that. Cool!" And they said, "No, no, no," and told me that a standup comic goes up, and I'm going, "You're not serious!"</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Is that really necessary?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">They seem to think it is. And they're getting ready to start, and they're like, "OK, everybody, line up for intros." "What is that? What are they doing?" She said, "Well, they introduce you to go up." I said, "Before the show?" They introduce the entire cast one by one, like a basketball team.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">"At center, we have Mary Steenburgen playing Bessie!" And you go out and wave, and the audience applauds, and then you all go backstage and get in place to make your first entrance. Can you imagine if you're doing a play, and they did that? I thought that was hysterical! "And playing Juliet at five foot two!"</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That's funny.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It was just bizarre. And then, the audience can see you, standing, waiting to make your entrance. You're sort of standing behind a flat, and most of the audience can see you...</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> They can?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Well, sometimes, depending on what part of the set you're in.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">[To do television,] I'd have to move, change my entire way of life, work a lot more than I work. I like my freedom; it's very scary to me to think of giving up my freedom.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It is scary when you feel like you owe your soul to the company store a little bit. You sign on the dotted line for like a minimum of five years.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah, that's what scares me! If it was for a year, or something, that would be a snap.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">A year or two.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Also, most of the things I have been offered on television were not—I didn't love the material. I have loved the television films I've done. I've done two. I did a series for the BBC of Scott Fitgerald's </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Tender Is the Night</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, which I loved doing, and the other one was </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Attic</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, about the Dutch woman who hid the Frank family in Holland, and I loved that.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's not a thing about "TV" so much as it is the practicality, the way it would change my life. You did one of the most incredible things, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Yarn Princess</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, on television; that was a beautiful, amazing performance. It's so hard to play a retarded person—a person, what do you call it? Slow.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">"I'm a slow person," she says about herself.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I couldn't even recognize you; you didn't do anything to change your face, but it's not even the same face. You just understood this person so beautifully. You transformed yourself.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's one thing about TV movies, actually, especially now, is that they actually do, sometimes, some subject matter that's a little more...</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Risky?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah, and a broader spectrum sometimes than features. Features are getting a little gun-shy about anything that isn't really high-concept, that they feel real confident about. Maybe it's an economic issue or something. That's kind of too bad, 'cause it's getting harder to get things like, somebody told me the other day, remember that wonderful movie, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Trip to Bountiful</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mm-hmm.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">An executive of the studio said you could never get that movie made now.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah. There were a lot more independent films being made, I would say, 10 years ago. I produced a little indedependent film (</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The End of the Line</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">).</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">A few years ago, the year that </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Crying Game </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">was up for an Oscar, and there were some performances that were up from independents, everybody was saying how that was going to help all these independent companies. It should have proven something to somebody.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">I wish people would have confidence in a story, in a good story. That is the bottom line; that's what people want to see. Maybe there are a couple of actors that they'll go see in anything. But the bottom line is, if you have a great story, and you do it well, word of mouth is gonna make it a success. If you aren't so fearful that you pull it after the first weekend if it doesn't do great, if you don't spend $20 million on your cast so you have to make it back—I mean, the budgets have gotten to be like a joke.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> [With this play,] it's really a case of living up to great material. Where a lot of your career is spent, you know, frankly taking things and trying to say, "How can I make this better?" in this case it's, "How can I find every moment he meant for me to find?" and "Can I fully realize every gift [the playwright] gave me in this play?"</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">We feel so cheated that we don't get to talk to the playwright or to invite him come and see the show. I mean that selfishly, but also I mean it's such a waste; no one will ever get any more of his writing, you know. He was incredibly special.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Voice of Sandy</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Studying acting is a treacherous kind of endeavor because there's a lot of people who are just full of it, that themselves are not good actors and don't really know what it takes to make a good actor, and so they're teaching it. Then there are people who genuinely have gifts. They're the teachers that can communicate something to you that will be useful, that is like a product you purchase that you can use for the rest of your life. [With Sandy Meisner's teaching,] it should have said it comes with a lifetime guarantee, because it has never failed me. When I get [side-tracked,] I can actually hear his voice in my head, and I make an adjustment that he would say.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Can you give an example? I mean, I've heard so much about him but I don't know precisely what...</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, absolutely. The other day I was rehearsing [with Chad Cox] and I realized that I was worrying so much about all these different little moments that I was just getting bogged down in them. Sandy always said, Don't do anything unless the other person makes you do it. You put all your attention on the other person and trust that you know all those moments that you're working on. You have done that work, but then don't concentrate on them. So I thought, I'm not going to think about that moment, that moment, that moment, the notes I got the day before, whatever. And I put my attention on [Chad] and within seconds I was so deeply into it, you know, because he took me there, the other actor. He's wonderful.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">Also, I was lucky enough to study at the Neighborhood Playhouse for two years, and there was a hugely repetitive nature to [Meisner's] work. The same things were taught you over and over. There's even an exercise called repetition exercise, which I still do—you know, Ted [Danson] and I do it. We sometimes do it when we're looking at something or reading something or working on it.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">But it's been 20 years since I studied with Sandy, and in those years, especially on film, I've accumulated my own little ways of doing things. Film is so technical. I like to give the editors a "cut" within a scene—you know, like at the end of the scene, I turn my head a certain way or make a movement, to give [the editors] a place to put their scissors.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's funny, because you and I haven't really talked about that before, about Meisner. I went through a Bachelor of Fine Arts Program in Theatre at the University of Washington. We had some amazing teachers there. They didn't have any particular method they promoted, but they were also professional actors and directors. But with some actors—I mean, even if I didn't know who they studied with, immediately when they open their mouth they're just very real, very natural, very subtle, very…you know what I mean? And however they get there, you know, kind of doesn't matter.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I do believe that. Somebody said, "Does it worry you when you work with people who didn't study with Sandy Meisner?" Well, I don't know if I ever have worked with any [of his students] except two or three times in my career. You can get some things from anybody, no matter what they're doing. With you, you're so present all the time, it's easy. I mean, I've burst into tears in the middle of a scene when I knew I had no emotion coming into it because of you, because there's something in your eyes and all of a sudden it will make me do what I'm supposed to do. That's really a gift when you work with those actors, but you can't count on that all the time, so it's great if you have your own way of working that's hopefully flexible and inclusive.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">That was one thing that...</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">When we were young...</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">...the arrogance of young acting students .</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> There's nothing worse than a drama major!</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah! God's gift to acting, the first-year actor. After my first year at the Neighborhood Playhouse, I went back and did </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">in Arkansas, and the local critic there clobbered me. Rightfully so. I wasn't good, and I know exactly why: because I was so busy acting a method that I really wasn't telling truth and I wasn't serving the play. I was very self-involved, Miss Literal Method, with no expansive sense of humor about myself.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sandy always says it takes 20 years to make an actor, which means that I'm just about now getting started; I may be born this year. I always thought, Yeah, yeah, I'll be there before 20 years. But I think that the thing that's true about it is that life has to give you that sense of humor and humanity and time and irony, and all the things that can then go straight into your work. You don't have that at 22, 23. I didn't. I had other great things: fierce desire and hope and complete willingness to work my butt off. But I really do see what he means now; life gives you a lot.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I see a big difference out here between actors who've never done any theatre and actors who started out in the theatre. I was surprised when I first moved out here when I met actors who had never done a play. I didn't know that such people existed. I'm not being condescending, but I do think that [the stage] gives you a great deal of self-confidence, and you learn how to incorporate a character into your body. If someone said, "You're really cute. You could probably do commercials, and maybe act." If that's how you start, I don't think that you ever learn how to really incorporate a character.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">There is a little bit [of antipathy toward theatre from] agents sometimes. You and I are both from the same agency [William Morris], and I think we're lucky that we have agents who don't discourage us from doing something if it's good, you know, and it's not necessarily going make them a ton of money.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah! One of the reasons I love being [with William Morris] is that they're respectful of an actor's desire to do this to grow, because I'm only going to be better with the next film I do because of this experience. The stuff I'm learning on this I easily can bring to film.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">But a lot of agents really discourage their clients from doing this because they want them in on making big bucks. But it's a very smart thing to do, to respect the fact that actors are continually growing.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You know, you talk to Anthony Hopkins—he's doing most amazing work of his life at this time of his life, but he'll tell you that he did theatre in Los Angeles. I saw him play Prospero out here, you know. And part of what he and his agents are reaping now was invested in that kind of work.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I'll never forget the first time I saw him a long time ago...</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I know. He's riveting.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>Jean:</b> My husband doesn't want to hear his name anymore, the way I drool and fawn.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">Unfortunately, there's this attitude out here sometimes—you know, you do your acting classes and your theatre, yeah yeah yeah and the [industry is] thinking, “If you're such a good actor, then why are you doing all this crap?" You know what I mean. To them, the bottom line is, it doesn't matter.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It doesn't matter for those lucky moments that you are in an amazing film that works. But a career for a lifetime...</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Oh God!</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's all that matters.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The people who do classy projects want people that are good. There are some actors who are certainly adequate actors but who for whatever reason caught people's fancy and work a lot. The bottom line is, people want to watch certain people. The intangible thing about being an actor that goes beyond just ability to tell a story is, Do people want to watch you?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">Some people find that at a very young age, and some people find it later—you know, they find a character that suddenly makes everybody sit up and take notice, and suddenly it's that wonderful marriage between an actor and a role that brings out all the best qualities of something.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">But that's why actors can get so frustrated about the business and about things. You have to keep a better sense of humor about yourself and about the business, too, otherwise you'll make yourself crazy, because you'll always feel that you want something or that you feel like you're not doing enough.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Also, if you can develop a sense of facing yourself, trusting yourself, and an awareness of time, then you're not so desperate about this moment, the present. I have a friend who said that she only just recently stopped trying to read every single script that is being made right now. I said, "You mean you would read scripts that your agent can't even get you a meeting on, scripts that are going to somebody else?" And she said, "Yes, every single thing.”</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Wow!</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I said, "Why do you do that to yourself?" And she said, "I'm so afraid of missing something." And I said, “My God, that must hurt so much to do that."</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; white-space: pre-wrap;">She said, "Why aren't you like that?" And I said, "I don't know, I guess I have this genuine belief that I will do what I'm meant to do." And I don't mean that I just turn it over to somebody else, because I read and sometimes I have to work hard to get things still. But within that, I do believe that I wind up doing what I'm supposed to do, and I try to listen to whatever it is that's supposed to be next.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I didn't know what I was going to be doing this autumn. And then my friend Tom Hulce called and said, "You're going to be offered a play called </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marvin's Room</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, which I don't know if you saw, and you have to do it." Tom Hulce had told me to read a book called </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">What's Eating Gilbert Grape?</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> which ended up resulting, years later, in me being in the movie. So I listen to Tom.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I'm so sick and tired of everybody thinking, "This is going to be a career move... Should I, shouldn't I, career move...career move..." Instead of going, "I’m supposed to be enjoying my life, I'm supposed to be enjoying having these opportunities to be an actor and to make my living as an actor, which is what I wanted to do."</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Does it make your heart beat faster?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah! Instead of, "This is going to be a bad career move, this is going to be a good career move." You make yourself insane. "I can't go out of town on vacation because, you know, that one great meeting might happen when I'm out of town, you know." Thank God we're not living that life, but people who do a job their entire life that they loathe so that they can retire when they're 65 and then start living, or people who muddle through a job that they hate and that bores them out of their skull five days a week and live for the weekend—you know, to me that would be very sad. It doesn't mean that our business can't be incredibly stressful in some ways. I would not encourage my son to pursue it, and if I had a daughter I certainly would not encourage her to pursue it either. I wouldn't forbid them in any way if they really seemed driven, but I certainly would not push them in that direction.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I feel very blessed by this business, you know. I’ve made my living at it and raised my family, and it's been astoundingly great and generous to me. But do I think it can be better? Absolutely. It's very exciting now to finally have been directed by a woman; I did a little movie Laura Dern directed, and this is the first time I'm directed by a woman! And then I did </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Candida </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">last year in New York, which Gloria Muzzio directed, and you just finished a movie that Betty Thomas is directing.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">She's great. I think what's going to help a little bit is if we all as people back off a little bit from the notion that, you know, this is a man's project, a woman's project, and even necessarily assuming that a woman producer or a woman director is going to be somehow better for actresses.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mary: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I agree!</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jean: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I mean, if you just stop worrying about all that and just let people do what they do best then we'll all be better off! Relax!</span></p>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-33679601464026300812023-03-08T17:34:00.006-05:002023-03-08T17:34:52.273-05:00The First Cut Is the Deepest<p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhH5lV-WFqlCZIDUCr1F-GsaCT3AxiqrJkgJ0mPeU79Smm0KNTDc6u8FyxD468TvGnnMAWAQa-_NepfGUxMrhpgUOoPWGFOYAk1Zx8Ncu1HmFm43RFXApw49nZQJR2PgGfhq4osVAAvM5wm6CVmgapkAU9nwr16WURhIyGzG0BBtbX5E6qwjQ/s800/orville-mendoza-a-cast-member-of-the-broadway-revival-of-91281.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="610" data-original-width="800" height="305" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhH5lV-WFqlCZIDUCr1F-GsaCT3AxiqrJkgJ0mPeU79Smm0KNTDc6u8FyxD468TvGnnMAWAQa-_NepfGUxMrhpgUOoPWGFOYAk1Zx8Ncu1HmFm43RFXApw49nZQJR2PgGfhq4osVAAvM5wm6CVmgapkAU9nwr16WURhIyGzG0BBtbX5E6qwjQ/w400-h305/orville-mendoza-a-cast-member-of-the-broadway-revival-of-91281.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="text-align: left;">Orville Mendoza as Sweeney at the 2014 Sondheimas celebration. (Photo by David Gordon)</span><br style="text-align: left;" /></span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: arial;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">When Stephen Sondheim died last year, <a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/11/30/nothing-thats-not-been-said-on-sondheim/">I reflected</a> that he is probably the single artist I've written the most about, both for hire and otherwise. With the publication of <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/theater/sweeney-todd-sondheim-josh-groban.html">my new preview piece on the Broadway revival of <i>Sweeney Todd</i></a>, I have occasion to reflect that I can boast the pleasure of having written about that show, arguably his greatest, more than any other of his pieces.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Like many folks, my first exposure to <i>Sweeney Todd </i>was the recording of the 1981 tour stop with George Hearn and Angela Lansbury, which I confess was too grisly for my 12-year-old self to get through. Around the same time I was more intrigued but not quite won over by the similar video of <i>Sunday in the Park With George</i>. My journey to a full appreciation, then full-on fanhood, as I've said many times (<a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/2011/04/01/stephen-sondheim-playwright-in-song/">including to the man himself</a>), was in intimate stagings by a number of L.A. theaters: <a href="http://robkendt.com/Reviews/intothewoods.jpg"><i>Into the Woods</i> at Actor's Co-op</a>, <i>Company </i>at West Coast Ensemble, <i>Assassins </i>at L.A. Rep, <i>Putting It Together </i>at the Colony, <a href="http://robkendt.com/Reviews/pacificovertures.htm"><i>Pacific Overtures </i>at East West Players</a>.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">That last venue is also where I saw my first live <i>Sweeney Todd</i>, in 1994, by which time I was not only acclimated to his work's complexities but alert to them, even ardent about them. Amazingly, I learned recently that that production was also Josh Groban's first experience, not only of the show but of Sondheim's work. Josh was then around the age I had been on my first mortified exposure to <i>Sweeney</i>, and obviously he was more mature than I, because that production kindled a lifelong love for the man's work that culminates with him headlining the first full-scale <i>Sweeney </i>revival on Broadway.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Among the great pleasures of writing my preview piece on the new <i>Sweeney </i>was to be able to name check that production and its star, <a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2017/04/next.html">Orville Mendoza</a>, about whom Josh told me: "That performance still resonates; it still haunts me."</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">I could say a lot more about <i>Sweeney Todd</i>, but it turns out I've already said a lot, in...</span></p><p><a href="http://robkendt.com/Reviews/sweeneyewp.jpg"><span style="font-family: arial;">A review of the 1994 East West Players production with Orville Mendoza & Freda Foh Shen</span></a></p><p><a href="http://robkendt.com/Reviews/Sweeney%20Todd.html"><span style="font-family: arial;">A review of a starry Reprise! concert staging with Kelsey Grammer & Christine Baranski in 1999</span></a></p><p><a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2017/03/tbt-sweeney-stripped-naked.html"><span style="font-family: arial;">A review of the 2005 Broadway revival with Michael Cerveris & Patti LuPone</span></a></p><p><a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2008/01/sblood.html"><span style="font-family: arial;">Thoughts in this space on the 2007 film version</span></a></p><p><a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2014/09/alive-at-last.html"><span style="font-family: arial;">A review of the NY Philharmonic production with Emma Thompson & Bryn Terfel in 2014</span></a></p><p><a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2017/03/01/stephen-sondheim-great-artist-whose-work-blossoms-simple-settings"><span style="font-family: arial;">A review of the 2017 "pie shop" production (joined with a review of <i>Sunday</i>)</span></a></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">I haven't yet been assigned to review the new revival, but if I am, I will consider it yet another chapter in a long critical engagement with the demon barber (and his creator). The chair awaits.</span></p>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-65965722649514412472023-02-09T11:22:00.001-05:002023-02-09T11:22:00.156-05:00TBT: Poetry Vs. Hollywood<span id="docs-internal-guid-385f9da3-7fff-fb0d-4c61-c7313be0063f"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjg2Gu0ae3J2VBOe2BnHvVMI3i81K7J3kwNKMWwzlprh1ZkIMuUnK6qDxja-ASVoPDJBzNvIJWJ6eV9opEIoVY5wCyjEZ3FvshMhfEz2ms5E0bb2Q4iQsDnp7fCrjbxYTWLvoFU3QrKcQrbFFTFjuBi_iH3JB6iyoLBZlyqvdNbrCulaaxv-g/s482/carolmuskedukesdaviddukes.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="414" data-original-width="482" height="344" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjg2Gu0ae3J2VBOe2BnHvVMI3i81K7J3kwNKMWwzlprh1ZkIMuUnK6qDxja-ASVoPDJBzNvIJWJ6eV9opEIoVY5wCyjEZ3FvshMhfEz2ms5E0bb2Q4iQsDnp7fCrjbxYTWLvoFU3QrKcQrbFFTFjuBi_iH3JB6iyoLBZlyqvdNbrCulaaxv-g/w400-h344/carolmuskedukesdaviddukes.jpg" width="400" /></a></div></span><br /><p></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><i>One of the privileges of my theatergoing in L.A. back in the day was seeing talented actors like David Dukes do some of the best work of their careers in venues both big and small. I also got to interview him a few times, and he was as interesting to talk to as he was to watch (not always true of actors, honestly). Then he died suddenly, at the age I am now, and I got to know his widow, the poet Carol Muske-Dukes, who wrote a book of essays in part about her late husband and the world he occupied. This piece for the paper I ran then brings back fond memories. I hope you enjoy it as well.</i></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span></span></p><a name='more'></a><p></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><i>Back Stage West</i></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">September 26, 2002</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 19pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marriage of True Minds</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">In her new collection, Carol Muske-Dukes remembers her husband's artistry—and wonders if Hollywood and poets can rhyme.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">by Rob Kendt</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">David Dukes was really too good an actor for his own good—at least, he often seemed too smart and nervy and versatile for this town, which mints stars like collectible plates and keeps the rest of the talent pool in a state of anxious limbo, perpetually on call and on hold but never on retainer. One doesn't go into acting for the job security, of course but neither did Dukes, it's fair to assume, enter the business of show for the honor of credits in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Slappy and the Stinkers</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> or </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Snow Kill</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> or the mercifully short-lived sitcom </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Pauly</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, or even for the dubious distinction of playing Edith Bunker's would-be rapist on </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">All in the Family</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> or the "icepick killer" in the Frank Sinatra vehicle </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The First Deadly Sin</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Giving a kitschy nod to the vagaries of her late husband's career, the poet Carol Muske-Dukes titles her new collection of essays </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Married to the Icepick Killer: A Poet in Hollywood</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> (Random House, 2002, $23.95). Most were written and published in periodicals before Dukes died suddenly of a heart attack in fall 2000, at the age of 55, on the set of the miniseries </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rose Red</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Theatrical Flair</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">If the tone of Muske-Dukes' diverse, diverting essays is not exactly elegiac, it is nevertheless a book shaded—one hesitates to say haunted—by a great absence, by the inverse of an actor's stage presence. This is at least partly because among Muske-Dukes' central subjects is the alienated, atomized cultural landscape of this spread-out, seemingly history-less industry town—a place where the popular images of the culture are created, while alternative images speak uncertainly, if at all, in the margins, at poetry readings and open mics, in tiny storefront theatres, in academe, on the pages of fringe newspapers, in countless boutiques and salons and workshops where self-selecting cliques and klatsches of people gather to blow off the creative steam not used or wanted by the entertainment industry.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">"Nothing that happens in Hollywood is only local," Muske-Dukes writes in her opening essay. "Its power to influence the world is a vast yet intimate power. And Poetry (powerless but universal) operates similarly. Poets are servants of the commonplace and arcane force which is the Imagination—they know it is possible to </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">be</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> anyone or anything." Elsewhere, in an essay titled "Frenzied Nirvana: Behind the Scenes of a Poem," she deftly tackles the differences in the media of film and poetry—one as enveloping as a shared collective dream, the other the springboard for subjective, uncharted flights of imagination.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">What comes through clearly, and touchingly, throughout is that David shared that poet's sense of possibility. His epitaph is Bottom's "Let me play the lion too” speech from </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">A Midsummer Night's Dream</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">—the credo, indeed, of every character actor, even the ones trapped, like Dukes, in a leading man's form.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">"David was always more at home in creating himself in these self-filled inventions than he was—I don't want to say all the time—in the real world," said Muske-Dukes in a recent interview. "I think it was hard for him to walk in the world, in a sense, without a role. He wasn't at all a showy man, he was modest in a way—but he had a certain flair that was theatrical in almost everything that he did."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The theatre, finally, is where Dukes did his definitive work, from his early days at American Conservatory Theater to </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">M. Butterfly </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">and </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Bent</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> on Broadway, as well as in the L.A. stage credits he assayed between lucrative film gigs: Lucio in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Measure for Measure</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> at the Ahmanson Theatre, and, perhaps most memorably for its intimacy and power, his pained Vladimir in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Waiting for Godot</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> at the Matrix Theatre. As Muske-Dukes admitted, he was never entirely at ease on film.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">“There's always that question about what it takes to be a great film actor, and there's a kind of static quality to certain film performers, an aura, that can be really powerful," she said. Dukes, on the other hand, had a certain restlessness, an edge, which onstage he harnessed into heartrending or hilarious portraits of awkwardly soulful men but which on film got him typecast as prigs and psychos. Still, citing a eulogy by the English director Sir Peter Hall, who directed Dukes in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Measure for Measure</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, Muske-Dukes said, "He had great work ahead of him, not just onstage but on film, but he hadn't figured that out yet.”</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Student and Teacher</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Though it contains a trio of essays specifically about her late actor husband, including the title essay—a sharp, tender piece she wrote for </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The New York Times</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> magazine about being married to an actor's rootless, odd-jobbing insecurity—this is not just a book about an actor's widow. Muske-Dukes is a preeminent American poet and the director of the graduate program in literature and creative writing at the University of Southern California, where she witnesses firsthand the struggles of young poets and writers to make a place for themselves in a culture that seems to have more aspiring writers than readers. She surveys the fraught relationship between celebrity and creativity, between the power of mass communication and the potency of the individual artistic vision, with an eye that is neither breathless nor jaundiced, that has both the student's openness and the professor's wisdom.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">She whimsically imagines reviews of great poets in history if they had been</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">"performance poets"; she recounts Hollywood's attempt to employ her poetry for a voiceover narration in the submarine film </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">U-571</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">; she contrasts a visit to the Clinton White House to honor American poets (one of the former President's many outsized passions) with a visit to a veritable orgy of Clinton bashers, including her old friend Christopher Hitchens, hosted by self-made pundit Arianna Huffington; she muses on guest-teaching poetry to West Point cadets.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's only after reading the whole book, with its coda about the inseparable beauty and terror of Los Angeles, that we realize how refreshing and rare it is to read a book of literate, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">New Yorker</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">-style essays that aren't by a New Yorker but instead, like the work of Sandra Tsing Loh or Tom Waits, emanate from a distinctly Left Coast sensibility.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Muske-Dukes also writes bemusedly about the true Southern California obsession, real estate, from her house in the historic Hancock Park neighborhood, a former bastion of WASP purity (i.e., restrictive housing codes designed to keep out African-Americans and Jews).</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Little Murmurs</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">One doesn't have to look far in that well-appointed two-story home for traces—photos, programs, awards, clippings—of the great actor who lived there (when he lived there). Muske-Dukes recalls his presence and their "powerful" relationship ("We gave each other a lot of trouble," she said, but "there was a lot of passion") in fond particulars.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">"I remember David sitting about here," said Muske-Dukes, looking around the house with clear eyes. "And I would just hear a little murmur as he was going over his lines, like you hear someone praying under their breath. It was like there were voices in the house—like the water was running somewhere. I saw what he did, and I understand what he was doing—he was making those words live in a whole new way. </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">There may be no sweeter picture of married contentment in a household containing two outsized creative talents than that: David running lines with his portable mini-cassette recorder while Carol labored to compose a new stanza over her writing desk.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Married to the Icepick Killer</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> is as fine a celebration of the stubborn persistence of the artist's temperament in a media age as you're likely to find.</span></p><p> </p>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-13388525856212930722023-02-02T06:00:00.001-05:002023-02-02T06:00:00.154-05:00TBT: Randy Newman Can't Afford to Do Theatre<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhY8vZCAqeS2SQMQZhEPq6JQmQMHRx5KZTRHk0zC-sKsS_2HrN_VtKgf6BvgebuyYLjCEcs6S4dRyiYFDw1RsZ2dcy-F1P6KFt4rDLFFPWN1mSS2ajo0LD2nK2Jsr_yqhhI2z3QNaZYwKhUU-avKMTqnGMZCDrYrTHpMjLznzWzvUiA6fu2sA/s3563/IMG_3724.jpeg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="3563" data-original-width="2677" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhY8vZCAqeS2SQMQZhEPq6JQmQMHRx5KZTRHk0zC-sKsS_2HrN_VtKgf6BvgebuyYLjCEcs6S4dRyiYFDw1RsZ2dcy-F1P6KFt4rDLFFPWN1mSS2ajo0LD2nK2Jsr_yqhhI2z3QNaZYwKhUU-avKMTqnGMZCDrYrTHpMjLznzWzvUiA6fu2sA/w300-h400/IMG_3724.jpeg" width="300" /></a></div>It wasn't a one-on-one, alas, but I well remember the day I was ushered into a South Coast Rep rehearsal room for a sort of four-way interview: myself, another reporter, the press rep (Cristofer Gross), and Randy Newman, dressed in de rigeuer Hawaaian shirt. The occasion was a sort of revue of his work that music director Michael Roth and literary director Jerry Patch had cooked up called, after Henry Adams, <i>The Education of Randy Newman</i>. It ended up being a creditable stage effort but nothing special (nor, by most accounts, was an eerily similar anthology evening at the Mark Taper Forum <a href="https://www.latimes.com/archives/blogs/culture-monster-blog/story/2010-11-22/theater-review-harps-and-angels-at-the-mark-taper-forum">just 10 years later</a>). But I wasn't going to pass up the chance to talk to a songwriting idol, and after <i>Faust</i>, which I'd enjoyed at La Jolla Playhouse, it still wasn't all the far-fetched a notion that he could write something worthwhile for the theatre. (More on that bittersweet subject <a href="https://slate.com/culture/2014/07/randy-newmans-faust-and-his-musical-theater-ambitions.html">here</a> and <a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2014/07/tough-deal.html?version=meter+at+null">here</a>.)<br /><br />Without further ado, this was my cover story for the magazine I ran at the time.<br /><br /><h4 style="text-align: left;"><i>Back Stage West<br /></i>May 18, 2000</h4><h2 style="text-align: left;">Newman’s Own<br /><i style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: medium;">Randy Newman writes narrative songs in character. Is it any wonder they're ending up on a stage?</span></i></h2><b>by Rob Kendt<br /></b><br />Does Randy Newman have an image problem? We're not talking about his unprepossessing looks, which he has jokingly compared in song to "froggish men, unpleasant to see.”<br /><br />More damaging to the reputation of America's greatest living songwriter is his recent success as a sort of avuncular troubadour for baby boomers and their tykes, with the charming fluff he's written for such films as <i>Toy Story</i>, <i>A Bug's Life</i>, <i>Babe Il: Pig in the City</i>, and, going back a few years to the beginning of this uncharacteristically benign period in his work, <i>Parenthood</i>’s "I Love To See You Smile." It doesn't help his street cred that his two other biggest pop hits as a singer are "Short People" and "I Love LA." Nuff said.<div><br /></div><div>While no one can begrudge a great artist some success and material comfort, in Newman's case this recent mellowing, which would include his distinguished career as an orchestral film composer, often threatens to overwhelm his enduring contribution to pop music: a 30-year song catalogue unparalleled in its acid wit, its supreme but unpretentious artistry, its unreliable but incisive storytelling.<br /><br />This, after all, is the same songwriter who wrote "Rednecks,” satiric country anthem for Southern crackers that doesn't let the North off easy, either; "Sail Away," a sweet ballad which just happens to be a colonial slave trader's pitch to the Africans; “Wedding in Cherokee County,” the bluesy lament of an impotent circus freak, and such perverse confections as "Christmas in Capetown,” "Davy the Fat Boy," "I Want You To Hurt Like I Do." Even 10 years ago, the name Randy Newman was still a byword for double-edged character songs that were alternately moving, chilling, and hiarious—whereas now Newman and his patented ragtime shuffle are a family-friendly franchise.<br /><br />His last album, 1999's <i>Bad Love</i>, even addressed his perceived irrelevance with the corrosively funny "I'm Dead (But I Don't Know It)" ("Each record that I'm making/ls like a record that I've made/Just not as good").<br /><br />The mellowing is partly for real, Newman confessed in a recent interview at South Coast Repertory, where a new music-theatre piece has been fashioned from several of his songs, and is set to open June 2. Called <i>The Education of Randy Newman</i>, it's a sung-through musical conceived by SC literary manager Jerry Patch and musical director Michael Roth, with a Newmanesque central character carrying the evening from 1943 to today, employing Newman's character songs along the way to illuminate the personal and political upheavals of the period.<br /><br />"The arc of it is, I learn that life is not so bad," said Newman of the show. "Which actually is something that I learned. I think I was a lot more unhappy at 24 than I am now. Maybe I'm just not paying attention.”<br /><br />Not that he's disavowing his body of work—just that he's got more perspective about its rich, unsettling blend of misanthropy and compassion.<br /><br />"I never had a horrible, bleak view of the world—I always knew that people were kinda decent. The people in the audiences who hear my songs are better than the people in the songs—they're exaggerations, I know that. I know it from talking to individual people—they're just not bad. It isn't like the world is a cesspool.<br /><br />"I watched, on public TV years ago, Emile Zola's <i>Nana</i>, and it was the bleakest—it was like where you would go when you die. It was the worst, most depressing thing I've ever seen—way worse than life is, way worse. I just sort of knew that. It's that bad if you're a junkie; it's that bad if you're in love with someone who doesn't love you. But basically it's not."</div><div><h4 style="text-align: left;">Mixed Revue</h4>The association with South Coast Rep, Costa Mesa's regional theatre powerhouse, began when Michael Roth, who had music-directed a straight revue of Newman’s songs, <i>Maybe I'm Doing It Wrong</i>, in the mid-1980s at the La Jolla Playhouse and Off-Broadway, suggested to SCR artistic directors Martin Benson and David Emmes another Newman revue. They were fans, and so was Jerry Patch—but he saw the possibility of more than a simple evening of tunes.<br /><br />"I listened to a lot of his songs, and I had the notion that there something bigger than a revue here—that you coud tell a story with this material," said Patch. "Then the question became, How do you do that?"<br /><br />Patch thought of <i>The Education of Henry Adams</i>, the 1918 classic by the Quincy Adams-descended historian—a droll third-person autobiography about the forces that shaped the 19th century, filtered through the unreliable but witheringly insightful lens of Adams’ experiences. With Newman's approval and editorial input, the South Coast team set out to weave some of his best songs into a narrative thread which, like Adams' biography, would not give an accurate portrayal of his life per se ("the details would be overwhelmingly boring," Newman quipped) but would present his uniquely alert, jaundiced point of view on his times.<br /><br />His unique sensibility, both musically and thematically, is the product of his upbringing, mostly in Los Angeles but also, for a brief but significant period, in New Orleans, from whence his mother hailed. "I remember the ice cream wagon with the signs marked 'colored'—which was misspelled—and ‘white,’” said Newman. "I only lived there up to age three, but I went back every summer till I was 12." The new show extends this Southern sojourn a bit, in part so some of his Faulknerian songs about racists and con men and working-class anti-heroes can be included, and in part, as Newman explained, "so my character sees things which presumably give me my acute sense of social justice.”<br /><br />Actor Scott Waara plays this Newmanesque central figure, and the rest of the cast—an illustrious troupe that includes Jordan Bennett, Gregg Henry, Sherry Hursey, John Lathan, Allison Smith, and Jennifer Leigh Warren—plays other characters who embody the personal and political upheavals of the past 50 or so years, in a sung-through evening directed by Myron Johnson.<br /><br />"In many ways it's the most ambitious show we've ever done,” confessed Patch, who helps maintain SCR's deserved reputation as a bastion of literate new American plays. Indeed, while SCR has previously staged <i>Happy End</i> and <i>Sunday in the Park With George</i>, it is not part of the nonprofit regional theatre's Broadway tryout circuit, like its counterparts to the south, La Jolla and the Old Globe. In the context of SCR's literary bent, then, the collaboration with Newman makes perfect sense.<br /><br />"Randy really speaks to us, 'cause he's dramatic writer," said Patch. "He brings aspects of theatre to everything he does. He's clever, witty, smart; he's got craft to burn. If we're going to do a musical, he's the guy to do it with."<br /><h4 style="text-align: left;">Play the Playhouses</h4>Indeed, as inevitable as it was that Newman would follow his illustrious uncles Alfred, Lionel, and Emil in the trade of writing and conducting Hollywood film music, it also seems inevitable that this master of character writing and narrative would set his sights on the musical theatre. And so he did, with 1995's <i>Faust</i>, a joyous if ungainly vaudeville pastiche of Goethe's immortal story which premiered at the La Jolla Playhouse and went to the Goodman Theatre in Chicago with a possible Broadway run in mind. (That hasn't yet materialized, and plans for a staging at the Kennedy Center went away with its outgoing president, Lawrence J. Wilker, who apparently still wants to mount it somewhere.)<br /><br />Newman learned a lot from <i>Faust</i>—giving the audience a reprise or two, and giving songs a big finish so that actors can make a graceful exit, were two big technical lessons. He thinks it was misunderstood: "I believe I got too much credit for the songs and not enough credit for the book. The score wasn’t maybe as good as they said it was, and the book wasn't...I mean, compared to what? We weren't doing Shakespeare; it had a beginning and ending, more or less. And I didn't care: If I wanted to do a Busby Berkeley number—I really did—I did it, even if it didn't pertain to the plot.”<br /><br />Above all, Newman seems to have learned to trust stage craftsmen with his material, especially the actor/singers who bring his narratives to life.<br /><br />"| noticed with <i>Faust</i> that the actors made it better than it was on the page,” said Newman. "In <i>Education</i>, a number of the songs—the context and the performance is better than I can do; it's more effective.<br /><br />"It’s like, movie actors you meet sometimes, they're disippointments somehow. It's not their fault, it's just that they're not 40 feet high and they're not real smart and graceful and everything. But these stage people—they sing, they sing in tune, in five-part harmony, they sight read. They do stuff I can't do. Besides being able to do a backflip and dance."<br /><br />And he understands the value of working in theatre in an essentially pragmatic way: "One thing I did find out was that <i>Faust</i>, and I think definitely this show, played to people I could not play to. They wouldn't come to see me, and I couldn't keep 'em. Here you've got pretty people to look at, they're dancing around, some nice voices. Mv voice offends some people—music lovers—and once I get past 'You've Got a Friend in Me,’ Bug's Life, ‘Love To See You Smile,' and ‘Short People,’ I'm in trouble. But with <i>Faust</i> in San Diego and Chicago, they had kids, old black ladies, who liked it and sat through it, who I couldn't play for, really."<br /><br />Of course, he dues play to an even bigger mass audience with his second career as a G-rated bluesman and film composer. But he clearly understands his place as a hired hand: "Every Disney movie I've done, I could have written the same song for: If we all pull together, things will work out." And film scoring lets him obsess on the craft of writing for orchestra, which he learned at the feet of his three composer/conductor uncles in Hollywood.<br /><br />A show like <i>Education</i>, on the other hand, puts a new frame around some of his best songs for a mostly uninitiated audience. As SCR's Jerry Patch said, "Anyone in the Broadway business, or in music, knows how good this guy is. But to the general public, he's the guy who goes on the Oscars and sings the song from <i>Toy Story</i>. If this show can reintroduce his best songs to our audience—I think it will hit baby boomers right between the eyes."<br /><h4 style="text-align: left;">It's Money That Matters</h4>Still, Newman is not in any rush to write more for the stage. Not because he felt burned by <i>Faust</i>—his joy in that project shone through the score and still shows when he talks about it—but due to a more familiar dilemma.<br /><br />"It takes years and there's no money—I can't afford it," he said matter-of-factly. "If I could earn a living doing it, it would be a good thing to do, 'cause I could use everything I know: I can write dialogue, I can orchestrate, write songs, write jokes." <br /><br />The musical theatre might not want him, either, given his frank disdain for it: "It hasn't been the forum the best composers have gone into for quite a while; the best songwriters have been pop songwriters, for the last 30 or 40 years, mostly. Carole King and Paul Simon, people right there from New York, didn't go into it. There's Sondheim, but he's a lonely figure; everyone always has to say, 'Except for Sondheim.’”<br /><br />His admiration for Sondheim is tempered by a slight but telling disagreement over rhyming.</div><div><br />"He was going to see this workshop of <i>Faust</i> that James Lapine was doing, and he said, ‘I hope you won't be nervous,’ and I said, ‘Well, I hope you don't mind a couple 'girl and 'world' rhymes.’ And he said, 'Well, I do, and you don't come from that [pop] place, either.’ And I said, 'Yes, I do. With the diction I have, I don't have to feel you can't rhyme...well, ‘girl' and world' is particularly egregious, but I've done it. Fats Domino rhymed 'New Orleans’ and 'shoes.' I don't mind that stuff, and Sondheim does. I don't agree with him.<br /><br />"And sometimes I think he'll rhyme things out of boredom—just to show he can rhyme. He'll do a show about assassins or a murderer just because he has such virtuosity as a lyricist that he can do it. And yet, he's all we've got."<br /><br />Newman, in person a sharp, funny, youthful personality at 56, stopped himself to realize: "I'll never get to Broadway—I've said so many bad things about things they love. It's like trashing someone's house before you see their house."<br /><br />Indeed, after Paul Simon's famously contentious mounting of <i>The Capeman</i> in a hostile Broadway environment, Newman's comments may not get him a hero's welcome there. South Coast's world premiere of <i>Education</i> has no co-producers lined up to ensure it further productions; Patch said that the rights to the show remain mutually held by Newman and South Coast.<br /><br />But while it's unlikely that the entire oeuvre of this songwriter's songwriter will ever get a huge popular embrace, South Coast audiences are likely at least to get a good survey course—an education in Randy Newman, if you will.</div>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-61602924240313803542023-01-09T16:47:00.001-05:002023-01-09T16:47:51.215-05:00Samuel L. Jackson & La Tanya Richardson, 1994 Edition<p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQiMWoqb7yUmPxU2oVVkXy0c8ZVtgtZ9M8rSeSw3Lcg-wi5RVqu3pXjGUabQd-B9-qwvSecw1_ZBT5jMQfPshkIbo6Adn-q9PSZyvKLHNN_FtwrPS3c8fwH25p2n0ucSceGXbvBq8RCOKmIY8EFqI9qJhVwgd4E9NGfLYwgbS6o02aim0qlw/s2640/IMG_3978%20(1).jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1710" data-original-width="2640" height="259" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQiMWoqb7yUmPxU2oVVkXy0c8ZVtgtZ9M8rSeSw3Lcg-wi5RVqu3pXjGUabQd-B9-qwvSecw1_ZBT5jMQfPshkIbo6Adn-q9PSZyvKLHNN_FtwrPS3c8fwH25p2n0ucSceGXbvBq8RCOKmIY8EFqI9qJhVwgd4E9NGfLYwgbS6o02aim0qlw/w400-h259/IMG_3978%20(1).jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><i>Note: Sam Jackson is wearing a hat for the Birmingham Black Barons, a Negro League team that played 1920-1960. </i></span></td></tr></tbody></table></span></p><p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: times;">Tonight I'm headed to the <a href="https://circle.tcg.org/events/calendar/our-stories-2023?ssopc=1">TCG "Our Stories" Gala</a> honoring Samuel L. Jackson and LaTanya Richardson Jackson, whose long and often interconnected careers in theatre, film, and television have culminated in the current Broadway revival of <i>The Piano Lesson</i>, which Richardson Jackson directed and in which Jackson appears as Doaker. It's something of a full circle moment for both of them: Jackson originated the lead role of Boy Willie in the play's <a href="https://yalerep.org/productions/the-piano-lesson-14/">Yale Rep production in 1987</a>, then understudied it on Broadway (Charles Dutton starred), and Richardson Jackson has directed a number of plays by August Wilson over the years, though this is her first staging on Broadway.</span></span></p><p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: times;">Nearly 30 years ago, in one of the first issues of the actor's magazine I founded in L.A., we featured a long "actors' dialogue" with the couple, who had only fairly recently settled in L.A., ostensibly for her TV career, though they ended up staying to support his then-about-to-explode film career. This was well after Jackson was a regular presence in films, including in a few memorable roles in Spike Lee films, but about 7 months before <i>Pulp Fiction</i>'s release made him a film icon.</span></span></p><p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: times;">As this frank, wide-ranging conversation makes abundantly clear, though, these were at heart two veteran theater artists still figuring out the ropes of Hollywood, with clear eyes and no illusions but a real openness to the next turns in the road. I think it's safe to say these two figured it out, but it's also great to have them both back on the stage (I say <i>both </i>because while Richardson Jackson has been no stranger to the theatres as an actor, both regionally and on Broadway, her husband hasn't trod the boards for more than a decade.)</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: times;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">And btw, if you haven't seen </span><i style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Piano Lesson </i><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">on Broadway, what are you waiting for? I commend to you </span><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-theatre/a-piano-lesson-with-no-false-notes" style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Helen Shaw's rave review</a><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> to get a sense of what you're missing.</span></span></p><p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: times;">Here's the whole dialogue as it appeared in 1994.</span></span></p><p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><span></span></span></p><a name='more'></a><span style="font-family: times;"><br /></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Back Stage West</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">
</span><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">March 3, 1994 </span></p><span id="docs-internal-guid-9c70ed6f-7fff-2c46-89d6-fbb1b08b951e"><h2 style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>ACTORS' DIALOGUE: Samuel L. Jackson and La Tanya Richardson</b></span></h2><br /><h3 style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">On Stigmas, Soaps, and Actors Named Ice</span></h3><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> </span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">We didn't bring Samuel L Jackson and La Tanya Richardson together for this dialogue; they've been together for 24 years, first as New York actors pounding the theatre boards and doing commercials, now as L.A. actors shopping for the piecemeal employment of film and TV. Jackson has two films on the way—</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Fresh</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> in April, and Quentin Tarantino's </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Pulp Fiction</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> in the fall. Richardson is set to direct a play in Minneapolis next month, and appear in the upcoming </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Angie</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. For us, they appeared recently at Jerry's Deli in Encino. </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Being in California's been kind of different. I don't know, when I first started coming out here, I guess after </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jungle Fever</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, it was exciting, strange in a way, going to meetings, talking to people I hadn't been able to talk to or I guess hadn't had access to for a while. It's kind of strange thinking that acting in my head was one thing, and acting in theirs was another. Figuring out the standards, being totally different from the standards in New York—we discuss that all the time, in terms of how we evaluate how we're doing as actors. In New York, we did it by the number of plays we did, the kinds of plays we did…</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Who you got to work with.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I found New York to be a lot more nurturing in terms of actors, egos, careers, and opportunities to work with different kinds of people. Way back when we first got to New York we had the opportunity to work with Morgan Freeman and Gloria Foster, and being in the same arenas with those people and watching them grow, it sort of gave me a standard for learning how to work I used to kind of academically go through the stuff I was doing. I guess I did it for a long time, having an intellectual understanding of the material and not an emotional understanding.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I think you had an emotional understanding, but I didn't know what your investment was. Your dissection of the material was always so technically complete that it never bled into how you felt about it. It was always, "This is how it is, because this is how it should go." It's almost like you could read the writer's mind and technically break down exactly the way he said it, exactly the way he meant it, exactly the way the director was going to take it And generally you were right.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> For a long time, that's what I thought acting was. I mean, it was acting, so it was about pretending to have those emotions and pretending to look a certain way or have the right expression at the right time or having the right vocal inflection. I didn't realize for a very long time that I was supposed to </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">feel</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> that way on stage.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">I used to be real confused by people who say they "got lost in the moment." I was like, "Hey, I want you to be in control here. lf you're going to hit me, I don't want you to be so lost you're really going to hit me." I was real confused by what that all meant for a long time.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">But you've been acting since you were a child, and I didn't start until was like grown, in college. So you had another kind of yardstick, through Georgia Allen and all those people that you worked with, Diana Sands, watching people like that when you were still in your formative years. Your understanding of it was totally different from mine, and for a long time, it was really an indictment of how I went about what I went about doing.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> True, which is why more people know your name. When we walk in some place and they say, "And who are you?" I have to say, "I'm the housekeeper, and the mother"—</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And the critic.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I’m the critic, I’m the one who knows everything, and they don't pay me for that. I came out here to do a television show, though, which is how I got to California.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Which is how I got to California.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You moved out here for me, and everyone thinks it was because of you.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But having said all that about this TV show, how do you find the correlation between how you feel about acting and how people deal with you as "TV actress"? Because you know and I know there's a stigma about television actors, and that people tend to pigeonhole you.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> There's a stigma about </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">black</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> actors.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Well, yeah, but if you're a black TV actor, what does that mean?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It means that basically you're supposed to be very, very funny and fat.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">And fat!</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> The fat part I usually can get to; I can do that very easily. I’m not always funny, because sometimes my politics end up getting in the way of my humor. My humor becomes biting and sarcastic such that they say, "That's not the kind of funny we're talking about." I haven't been categorized yet. I've got a couple of great movies under my belt and some nice little parts.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, the kind of things you used to refer to, in terms of me, as these things that aren't very large, that don't amount to a hill of beans. You used to always give me real problems about doing these roles. "Why don't they give you a bigger role?" and I kept telling you they were all part of leading to something larger, that would give me the experience to do what I needed to do when it was time for me to do it.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Now that's what I do, and because of you I have hope. I am the first to admit you were right. I wasn't trained that way, all I knew was theatre and the love of it, and I knew great theatre. So I didn't understand the movie process. I loved movies, but I didn't understand that you didn't have to dwell in a moment.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That they don't have time for you to dwell in that moment.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You know, Academy Award nominations have just come out. I grew up loving the Oscars, and watching all that was part of the why-I-love-the-business thing. It wasn't until you were so totally involved in it, when you won the award at the Cannes Film Festival for </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jungle Fever</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> and our lives changed totally, and people thought of you as this other person, that the awards became something else. They weren't just fun anymore, they became this thing, and I actually found myself being affected by them in a way I hadn't before. Then, when you weren't nominated for an Oscar for that—I was just so totally thrown by it that I've been boycotting them.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">But now Larry Fishbume and Angie Bassett have been nominated, so we'll probably watch their category, but I won't watch the awards. I'll watch the beginning because Whoopi's hosting. I might have to watch all of it this year, now that I think about it.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Amen, amen.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Well, they're black and I'll watch anything black people do. I'm so starved to see black people do anything that I'll watch the Academy Awards to see it. I like good people to win, to get good things. So then, I guess I'm saying the Oscars are good things. They're noticeable things. And out here in California, it’s a résumé. A complete résumé.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjAs6EAaNd94BfnZUblX2a0xdlVFCBSWKnL4lphZ3bt7VTPCoXGYcd5E4T_H6kRw-cXmVxSOCh0e93WpkD-lIM7EjxlgpvwkzQcG7v84mHrI9Aktxrrv81nNukuBeu2FEU-UgYPfHdxhqRkfoCQLeUsZM05k-qEd4vPAZ18KKk8gURZV9KYRg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="968" data-original-width="780" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjAs6EAaNd94BfnZUblX2a0xdlVFCBSWKnL4lphZ3bt7VTPCoXGYcd5E4T_H6kRw-cXmVxSOCh0e93WpkD-lIM7EjxlgpvwkzQcG7v84mHrI9Aktxrrv81nNukuBeu2FEU-UgYPfHdxhqRkfoCQLeUsZM05k-qEd4vPAZ18KKk8gURZV9KYRg" width="193" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">LaTanya Richardson, at left, with the cast of the short-lived <i>Frannie's Turn.</i></span></td></tr></tbody></table><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It becomes part of your commodity. I’m kind of confused at this point, because you try not to believe your press and what people say about you so you can keep your feet on the ground and be who you are. If I’m as good as everybody says l am, then why don't I have a job? One of the best lessons I ever got in this business was when I first got to New York I was being interviewed for </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Ragtime</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">—you had to go in and do these interviews before you got to do an audition—and I was sitting there waiting and James Earl Jones came in. I assumed they were bringing him in there to offer him this role. Then I realized he was the best black actor of our time, in 1980, and he was sitting there being interviewed just like I was.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's disheartening. You get a lot of that. </span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That was something for me to remember. As I sit wondering why I don't have all these offers, I remember that and I remember why. But it doesn't make me feel like I’m making any ground. I’m still being tested constantly. Even as these same people tell me how good I am, I still have to jump through the hoop. And when I do that, they put fire on it and raise it a little higher. It's not encouraging at all. But I still have my love for this business, and my passion for acting. A lot of actors claim they want to direct.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Like me.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I would like to direct a film, but I wouldn't like to sit in a little dark room with the same film for the next six months trying to put it together. Consequently, I have no desire to do that. I’m satisfied doing acting.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's hard too for us because we are a family. It's us and our child and our life is not so centered around the business. It is and it isn't, because once we go audition or work, we come home to the house, and the school, and the school functions, the night of comedy we're doing at our daughter's school. When </span><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">you're doing a television show, it gives you a sense of relief, to kind of know where you are. From day to day we don't know where we are or where were going to be. I’m not sure I like what television itself involves, but until you do a sitcom, you have no idea.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's like with soaps. Until I did a soap I really didn't have the amount of respect that I do now for soap actors. It's a hard thing. You get up in the morning, you have a new script, you have to know it and be believable. I mean, it's a heightened sense of reality, but at the same time you have to believe that stuff when you're up there doing it. I tape the soaps now, they're such an integral part of my life. I could be embarrassed about the way I watch soap operas. I watch them late at night, going to sleep. I was doing a show in Mexico right before Christmas, and I made you tape every show while I was gone, for like 13 days. And when I came back I watched them all.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Thirteen days worth of four-hour tapes.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And did I learn anything? I think I did.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You learned who killed who…</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I mean about acting. Acting in TV and film is different from the theatre. I still love the theatre best, because you can try so much.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I think it's the immediate gratification, the healthy exchange of real energy there. You're doing something and people are sighing, laughing, on the edge of their seats, and you can see them paying attention to you. In film, the energy exchange is not there. You just give and don't get anything back from the camera. I've been fortunate because most of the crews that I work with stop and watch the scenes that are going on and afterwards will say something.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I enjoy watching actors who I know study and have a sense of technique, who weren't just thrown in like standup comics…</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Who spent time at their craft.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And knew that it was a craft and had a tremendous respect for what they were doing, and read books and knew what it took to get where they are. I like to read the books about how people have made it. I liked Laurence Olivier's.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And Michael Caine's book.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> His book taught me what to do when I got in front of the camera, because nobody else did. In theatre, you get the technique as you train; there's the director telling what the idea is, where it’s going. Film, I find, is very singular. A lot of what you're asked to do you bring yourself.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I find it all to be a big game. You have to do some things to make filmmaking interesting, because mainly it's picture-taking. Most of it you're not talking, because the dialogue is not always as integral to the film process. Sometimes you’re walking, driving, peeking around the corner, picking something up. So you have to find ways to make it interesting. One of the ways that I found to make it interesting for me is to do things the same way at the same moment. We watch things and say, “That cigarette was longer before, that glass was emptier.”</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's just because we're into continuity.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>Sam:</b> But that's all part of it. If you're not playing that game then you're doing something wrong. Part of your job is to keep the illusion of consistency going.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I find it confusing to sit and think about where your hand was. I get lost in the moment, totally abandoning myself to the character. I didn't know what I was going to do, I knew why I was going to do it, which is what let me do eight performances a week. Now, in trying to do it in California, I don't find there's a great sense of respect for theatre. California's about Hollywood and the movies. You just finished doing a play, </span><a href="https://variety.com/1993/legit/reviews/distant-fires-1200434776/" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-skip-ink: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Distant Fires</span></a><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and people were shocked about the quality of the theatre. Because I think here theatre had been an avocation, not something people did as a viable business, because you can't make money at it.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">That’s the other thing, you have to make money. We have to support ourselves. This has always been my day job. I don't even know at this point what the competition is, because as a black actress I go to auditions with people who are 10 years my junior and 20 years my senior for the same role. It's confusing, to say the least. To borrow from Shakespeare, "To thine own self be true." You wake up in the morning and figure out who you are and go to an audition and hope someone will buy it.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Everything changed for us. We spent all that time building great reputations in New York for doing quality work, which was criterion number one when you walked into a place—the kind of work you were doing, the kind of commitment you had to the theatre, the kind of work habits you had. The quality and consistency of the work meant something. Now all of a sudden the number of tickets your last movie sold at the box office becomes the criterion. The number of people in Iowa who have a Nielsen box who watch your show becomes the criterion.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And whether or not you are a rap artist.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It has very little to do with the quality or consistency of your work; it has everything to do with the quality and consistency of the dollars that are associated with your name. And that's something that you as the artist have no control over. A lot of times it's the material, it's whoever is in that material with you, it’s all kinds of things that you don't even know where to start to assess.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> When you look at it, what is your separate reality? Because they're white and they have a separate reality than ours. That's just the truth of it. So our perception of ourselves is so different from how others perceive us, and basically I have found that white people who run this business seem to feel that black people have to have this edge, this South Central edge all the time that a lot of us can assume; we know it but we don't have it.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">The most normal black people are in commercials, because that is the only venue I have seen where you are portrayed as a normal person. But see, it has a stigma attached to it out here where you're not supposed to do commercials because then you're deemed a commercial actress. I haven't done a commercial since I’ve been in California. I miss it, because I liked doing them.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And luckily when you were in New York, doing commercials, it's what kept us alive. Because we were basically theatre actors, and we couldn't live on that.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You're not kidding.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I couldn't do commercials 'cause I did have that edge; commercial people don't want a black guy with a goatee and an edge…</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Too tall, you were too tall.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">But you've also been lucky…</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I’ve been blessed. I've worked with some of the fiercest directors, from Mike Nichols to John Avnet to George Miller, the fiercest of the fierce.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> They hire you to do these small parts and then say, “Well, look what we got here, we need you to do something else so that she could do something else,” and that speaks volumes for your ability as an actress.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Surely now I believe the industry should recognize there's money to be made in black people. Black people have to understand that.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> They do know that, and that's why everybody who has Ice in front of their name is working, and we're not. People tend to do movies that are mindless and have rappers and comedians in them, they have singers in them—they have everybody except the people who spent time trying to figure out what the hell they were doing and how to correctly convey an emotion to the people that are paying their money to watch them do it. It's a sin and a shame.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I would like to have the luxury of just acting and not thinking about any of the other stuff that goes along with it.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgCSkMJc60tpEpuTomKi33fD8LG4bFQkYZFNQxpvNR5x_6HrPlY-xUMSIhl0QexVoi_1wuDQtmly6wpAHbIOPhLiR6i67QpYx2bUhUedeMIc7fG2XX8AhaBxv3i-V2kcLFzxsO2oCWMRTXOW6IFn8p2OyJMC6z4PgSauYDL4tguJCQPDyyqvw" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="415" data-original-width="316" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgCSkMJc60tpEpuTomKi33fD8LG4bFQkYZFNQxpvNR5x_6HrPlY-xUMSIhl0QexVoi_1wuDQtmly6wpAHbIOPhLiR6i67QpYx2bUhUedeMIc7fG2XX8AhaBxv3i-V2kcLFzxsO2oCWMRTXOW6IFn8p2OyJMC6z4PgSauYDL4tguJCQPDyyqvw" width="183" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">Jackson in <i>Against the Wall</i>, directed by John Frankenheimer.</span></td></tr></tbody></table><br />Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Also, it's like you were saying, I've met all these directors that were, like, so correct craft-wise. I got a chance to do a film with John Frankenheimer. Meeting that man and knowing all the things he's done, like knowing that he came from live television, where he directed over 100 live television shows, which is like doing theatre in a whole other venue for a whole larger audience, and which I watched as a kid growing up, you know the respect that he has for his craft. I mean, he knows so much about what he's doing that when the lights are right, he knows what lens to use without even looking at a camera, and he's not trapped by a monitor like a lot of these new directors I meet, and he allows the actors to create, and that's totally rare. I'm not real sure how the new film school has changed the idea of filmmaking or the kind of films that have been successful have changed the ideals of new filmmakers, because most of them now are less actor-driven, they're something else-driven—I don't even know what the something else is, but they're not actor-driven. Quentin Tarantino writes scripts that are actor-driven; even though there are a lot of things going on, they're still driven by the people that are doing them. The action doesn't overtake the cause, so the people and their relationships become more important than what's going to happen. That's why we respect the older films.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, I know, 'cause you could watch the people, not how exciting the explosion is or how devastating the mayhem was when the murder was committed, or how they got stabbed or how the gun was the pivotal point, or the point of the whole movie. That's blowing my mind. And it's something John Frankenheimer told us, too: Movies have always been made according to how much money they were going to make. It's just that there was a time when you did the movies that made the money but you felt a greater responsibility to make the movies that were going to be good films. And now you're not ashamed to say that the money is what's important. I need a lot of money right now. I'm trying to help build a school, so that's why I need a job. It's flowery for me to say I love acting, because I do love it. I just thank God I've been able to do it this long. I've been doing it a long time to not be famous.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But that wasn't the end-all be-all; that wasn't the point.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That was never the end-all be-all, but now I see that you have to want some fame in order to make the money, 'cause they don't want you if you're not famous.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I think I'm famous and you know how much money I make. So fame ain't the answer.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But it gets you through the door quicker than it gets me through the door. People say, "You're Sam Jackson's wife." And it's like, "Yes, should I put that on my résumé? Is that going to get me a job?"</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It will get you a different kind of respect.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, right.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But actually, having done that play…</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Distant Fires</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> ...reminded me of why I was in this business in the first place. I mean, standing there every night and interacting with those guys, moving an audience and feeling them move, and hearing the response after the play was over, getting the satisfaction of each moment from those guys and just having so much fun moving that play along with those words.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> To say that I just want to act for me at this point is simply a luxury that I can ill afford because you can't just act now. It's become so obvious to me that we are so interdependent on survival that you talk about acting and you talk about the business and it's almost like, "So what?" But it's an integral part of my life, so I've got to make it more than "So what." Because that's the way that I intend to make a difference somehow. It's the greatest medium in the world for reaching people, acting; people love it, it's a cause to celebrate. You know, we celebrate actors now more than we celebrate scholars, which is wrong in my opinion, but it's true.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Nobody's going to pay $7.50 to watch somebody solve a physics problem.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, but those people who are making enough money should pay the people who are solving the physics problem. I want somebody to figure out how to sustain buildings in an earthquake; we have a family living with us who were displaced by the earthquake.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Sometimes the things that we’re concerned with seem trivial in comparison.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But that's our only vehicle; it's what we think we know how to do.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> We didn't take that other way out. Like my mom said, "What are you going to fall back on?"</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Most of our mothers said that.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It never occurred to me to learn to do something else.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But we can do other things.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> There's other things I can do, but there's no other viable way I know of to make a living.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> There's no passion in the other way, because this is our heart's desire. I would like to do my heart's desire, which is to be an actress, a good actress, maybe even a great actress. I'm not going to stop trying to get there with each little thing. Yesterday I auditioned for something that was two pages in a 30-minute show. And half the world was there to get those two pages, but you pick yourself up and you go and when you don't get it, you go to the next page and the next two pages and you take it because you know it beats anything else I can think of, I guess. Nothing else would be as rewarding. Sometimes I think I should have done less edge work. I did a lot of edge theatre, a lot of avant garde, before it was called "performance art." The last play I did was a mixture of all that, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Casanova</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, with Michael Greif. What a director! He's like Fellini to theatre, he has that kind of sight. To say he's a visionary now sounds overused; he had sight. He was conscious. He was clear, and he was imaginative. And that's why I think </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Piano</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> is doing so well. That woman… Women right now, because we've been so disenfranchised, are not afraid to tell an imaginative story. It's based in reality but has off-shoots of imagination, color, sight…things that are not so blatant. People might say, "That's too dreamy, that's not real, because it doesn't happen," but what does that mean?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's about that reality-based stuff that you keep talking about. I didn't get a job because of that reality-based stuff.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Because you weren't real enough?</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> No, because I am real, and because the research that they're doing on the film told them there is no way that this woman could fall in love with a black man. "That's just not done." But it's a film. It's something they made up anyway.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And it's something that happens every day. It's just whether or not you're willing to take a chance on it being accepted.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I've been through that whole "It changes the politics of the film" thing.</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Indecent Proposal</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> probably wouldn't have made as much money, but would have made a more interesting film to have me in it. If I offered homeboy a million dollars for Demi Moore—then you would have had an interesting story. You ain't got an interesting proposition with Robert Redford offering him a million dollars to sleep with his wife—so what? She might have slept with Robert Redford for nothing. But if you put me in that situation, or Morgan Freeman, or Denzel, or a Native American… The fact of it is, there's so many interracial relationships on this planet right now that the planet's threatened not to have any real white people left on it pretty soon.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And the interracial mix is not necessarily black and white; we've got to get away from that They ran away from it with Denzel and Julia Roberts, but we don't want to get into that.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, and </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Love Field</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> didn't make any money. Spike couldn't even make it work for Wesley. A few people saw </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jungle Fever</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, but it wasn't about that.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> We need more Spikes. We need more of those twins, the Hughes brothers.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> They're damn good filmmakers.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">La Tanya:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Out of all the angst that we've been bombarded with, it's amazing that we're still together after all these years, with such diverse careers—one down, one up, then one up, one down. I'd like to be there at the same place with you. Maybe one day soon, they'll say, "That's the great philanthropist La Tanya Richardson; she helped build a school. She donated all her earnings from the film ‘Blah’ to build a school."</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sam:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Right, we'll get the credit line together.</span></p></span>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-70964867298444773792022-10-20T22:38:00.010-04:002022-10-20T22:44:40.563-04:00The Review Files: 'Topdog's' Fire Last Time<p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvGODk0cTczJ8uXF-1eN_QIbp9bR1hpUfK25wYxoK5JRU6pJMPFrcZQrGED3GBBgN1DDRs8vbtJiiIkQNaC2NV5-RdTWLH8uk13ooSpub68Tbl4gRU0cBuLKw8PEetYKrg3L3194_taC80Px1KbIYBmux1NrM_JxvpgfSCi34QZ33Jl7cctA/s3072/topdog-underdog_ctg.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2048" data-original-width="3072" height="266" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvGODk0cTczJ8uXF-1eN_QIbp9bR1hpUfK25wYxoK5JRU6pJMPFrcZQrGED3GBBgN1DDRs8vbtJiiIkQNaC2NV5-RdTWLH8uk13ooSpub68Tbl4gRU0cBuLKw8PEetYKrg3L3194_taC80Px1KbIYBmux1NrM_JxvpgfSCi34QZ33Jl7cctA/w400-h266/topdog-underdog_ctg.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><i>Larry Gilliard Jr. and Harold Perrineau in "Topdog/Underdog" at Center Theatre Group in 2004.</i></span></td></tr></tbody></table><p></p><p><i>It's been a very Suzan-Lori Parks week for me; a few days ago I published <a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/2022/10/18/suzan-lori-parks-lets-make-space-for-the-difficult-things/" target="_blank">my lively Q&A with her</a> at </i><span style="background-color: white;">American Theatre</span><i>, and tonight my review of the new Broadway revival of her 2002 Pulitzer winner </i><span style="background-color: white;">Topdog/Underdog</span><i> <a href="https://www.vulture.com/2022/10/theater-review-topdog-underdog-suzan-lori-parks-broadway.html" target="_blank">went up at Vulture/NY Mag</a>. I didn't catch this play in its original Broadway run, but I did see it when it came to L.A. a few years later. Below is my review for the </i><span style="background-color: white;">Downtown News.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: arial;">DOWNTOWN NEWS</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: arial;"> <br /></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: arial;">February 16, 2004</span></span></p><div style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="font-size: medium;">THEATER REVIEW</span></span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 13pt;"> </span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Lucida Grande"; font-size: 24pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 13pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><h2 style="background-color: white; break-after: avoid; font-size: 26pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">A 'Topdog' in Top Form</span></h2><h1 style="background-color: white; break-after: avoid; font-size: 26pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></h1><h4 style="background-color: white; break-after: avoid; font-style: italic; font-weight: normal; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: large;">Actors as Seductive as the Street Cons They Portray</span></h4><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-caps: small-caps; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-caps: small-caps; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;"><b>By Rob Kendt<o:p></o:p></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: x-small;"><b>CONTRIBUTING WRITER<o:p></o:p></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">From the simple raw materials of three-card monte—a few crates and a board, cards creased like small tents and placed in a row—a seasoned hustler can turn his streetcorner into a kind of open-air palmist's den, as seductively intimate as a confessional or a peep-show booth. He might as well be stroking a crystal ball as he looks into his mark's eyes and unspools his hypnotic, reiterative patter.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span>Playwright Suzan-Lori Parks manages a similar sleight-of-hand hustle with her brilliant two-hander <i>Topdog/Underdog</i></span><span>, now in a stark, stunning, roof-raising production at the Mark Taper Forum. Dealing with a seemingly small, stacked deck—two brothers, suggestively named Lincoln and Booth, reminisce and recriminate over a few nights in a tatty walk-up flat—she appears to show us her hand, all the while spinning out tangents and tricks that divert us from the high stakes on the table.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">"There's just so much in the cards," marvels Lincoln (Harold Perrineau), a former three-card virtuoso drawn inexorably back to the street after trying to leave it behind. It's equally true of Parks' deceptively lean play, the best to grace the Taper stage in years; there are untold riches in its hilariously profane badinage, in its impish horseplay, in the unforced but undeniable mythic suggestiveness of its iconography.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Indeed, at times director George C. Wolfe's staging, with a bare bulb splashing tall shadows onto Riccardo Hernandez's stagey cutaway set, explicitly references the disreputable pleasures of the minstrel show. Political incorrectness doesn't begin to describe the giddy spectacle of Perrineau's Lincoln—whose macabre day job is to slather on whiteface and dress as his ironic namesake at an arcade shooting gallery—as he mimes alternative versions of Honest Abe's last moments in his Ford's Theatre seat. What annoyed theatergoer, after all, could argue that unwrapping a crinkly candy or taking a phone call in the theatre should be capital offenses?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><h3 style="background-color: white; break-after: avoid; font-variant-caps: small-caps; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: small;">Roll and Rock<o:p></o:p></span></h3><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Even when the staging isn't so openly presentational, there's an undercurrent of competitive showmanship in the tale of two brothers, abandonded in their teens by parents who just couldn't be bothered with family responsibilities anymore, who each turned to a variety of the hustle to get by: Lincoln to a three-card racket that ended in senseless violence, Booth to creative, even impulsive shoplifting ("I stole generously," he says at one point, laying out an impressive spread).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">As these two stake out territory and settle old scores, Parks gets at one of the theater's great themes, perhaps its one great theme: the ways we all try to be the playwrights and directors of our own lives, to make sense of their alternately cruel and wondrous randomness by dramatizing them, by making scenes or games of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span>There's no scripting the vagaries of real life, though. And as this playful fraternal scrimmage inevitably turns to a life-or-death struggle, Parks tightens her grip and doesn't let up. It's here that <i>Topdog/Underdog</i></span><span>, for all its boasts and toasts, acquires a kind of primal tragic gravity. Parks turns a pedestrian political point—that there's no winning for these no-longer-young black men unless The Man allows it—into a universal whoop of despair worthy of Beckett.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Wolfe has a knockout pair of performers (somehow the word "actors" doesn't cut it) who handle Parks' virtuosic, free-ranging monologues, and lock into a believably well-worn camaraderie. As the older, wearier Lincoln, Perrineau hangs fire masterfully, keeping his cards close to his vest until he comes clean, and gets down and dirty, in the second act.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span>The strutting, fretting bantam Booth has the opposite arc, from manic to depressive. Larry Gilliard Jr.'s almost scandalously enjoyable performance in the role is indelible, and—like much about <i>Topdog</i></span><span>—is deceptively endearing. Gilliard is both a freakily dexterous, scene-stealing physical comedian—watch him apply cologne, or clear an elegant table setting—and a master of the scary slow burn. Not many performers have the range and control to play us like Gilliard—milking hysterical laughter one minute, then giving us a disturbed reverie of pin-drop intensity the next.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><span>But then, that's also a signature trait of <i>Topdog/Underdog</i></span><span>. A good playwright can give us a great time at the theater; a great playwright can rock our world. Parks does both: She gives us a good roll before she rocks us.</span></span></p>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-50512880893224333452021-12-30T07:32:00.005-05:002021-12-30T07:32:00.155-05:00Throwback Thursday: Rupert Everett & Richard E. Grant Dish and Declaim<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhyWVLRhRfTNSYa-Xay_ohmUPrvV3XbMra6gwCocqXyKthu9dUdGDrMmmOGUyKvTN7Wn_--60X4vUKWIzh6ijT3WGWsvRrXzBmsf8ljsC7To8kp3Ief2xLIkuVCImimVfPm9CJ3wLsQynW4KslHTBg-v0gQHsGdZgndmVNkYMANalasy473JA=s3192" style="font-style: italic; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1504" data-original-width="3192" height="189" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhyWVLRhRfTNSYa-Xay_ohmUPrvV3XbMra6gwCocqXyKthu9dUdGDrMmmOGUyKvTN7Wn_--60X4vUKWIzh6ijT3WGWsvRrXzBmsf8ljsC7To8kp3Ief2xLIkuVCImimVfPm9CJ3wLsQynW4KslHTBg-v0gQHsGdZgndmVNkYMANalasy473JA=w400-h189" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">photo by Gary Leonard</span></td></tr></tbody></table><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><i>As I mentioned <a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2021/12/throwback-thursday-mrs-c-and-mrs-g.html">last week</a>, going through old copies of </i>Back Stage West<i>, the actor's trade I ran from 1993 to 2003, I stumbled across this rollicking chat between two very funny, prickly Brits. The concept of the Actors' Dialogue was to facilitate an </i>Interview <i>magazine-style conversation between two subjects. Sometimes they required prodding. Though I was on hand for this exchange, these two were quite capable of prodding </i><i>each other, as you'll see. Enjoy!</i></span></p><p></p><span id="docs-internal-guid-ce5d6645-7fff-dd6b-9d4d-65a594d638f2"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>Back Stage West </b></span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">January 12, 1995 </span></p><br /><h2 style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>On Hustling, Hubris, and Improvisation</b></span></h2><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Actors’ Dialogue: Rupert Everett and Richard E. Grant</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> </span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Two Brits who appear in Robert Altman's fashion world send-up </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Ready to Wear</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> met poolside at the Westwood Marquis Hotel to dish and declaim.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert Everett, who plays the scheming son of a designer, made his first splash in film and stage versions of </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Another Country</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, since appearing in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Comfort of Strangers</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Inside Monkey Zetterland</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Madness of King George</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. Richard E. Grant, who portrays a preening dress designer, made his film debut in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Withnail and I</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> and has since appeared in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Mountains of the Moon</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">How to Get Ahead in Advertising</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Henry and June</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">L.A. Story</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Player</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert Everett:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Were you in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Henry and June</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">—the one about Anais Nin?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard E. Grant:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I played Anais Nin's boring American husband, who had a huge penis, apparently.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I must have walked out by the time you were on.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I’m not going to slag off your films—the few that you have made. You come from a very, very rich family, you're upper class.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> So are you!</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And very well-bred.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And you used to have a plantation of slaves in Swaziland.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You went to the Central School of Speech and Drama and got yourself kicked out. The legend was that you got your first job at the Glasgow Citizens Theater by doing an audition for </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Hamlet</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> playing Ophelia in a pair of pajamas, which so overawed us—</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It was Nina in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Seagull</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And you've never looked back, have you?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I've looked back several times.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Meanwhile, I was very studious. I went to university, I got my degree, I fulfilled my father's requisite that I get educated as well as informed about how to become an actor. You just tchotchked straight onto the London Stage and won every award for </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Another Country</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And now you're doing good and I'm hanging on by my fingernails.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Exactly. That's what I just said.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Everyone gets their moment.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And you had 15 seconds.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> In America, you get huge fame and huge money, and I want it. And in England you get no money and infamy.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's right.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I mean, God forbid you should be successful in any shape or form. That literally is hubris.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But I think when you fail, it's much more heartening; they like that. Then you can come back broken-winged. If you fail in America, it's like having leprosy: People run away from you, because it may be contagious.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Which is why you hear talk about Julia Roberts at the age of 24 making a comeback.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> When did she do that?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Oh, a couple of years ago, when she took a year off.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You weren't cast in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Ready to Wear</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, as I was, having worked with Robert [Altman] on </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Player</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. You live in Paris, and you said, "If I am not in the Altman film, I will never be able to wear a frock and walk down the Champs-Elysee with my head held in pride ever again." So you literally badgered and cajoled and bribed your way—short of the casting couch—into this movie, built up your part, and have been ruthless and relentless about it ever since.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I'll be very fair. You're the best thing in the film.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You're only saying that to try and stop me talking about your slanderous, philanderous way of needling into the film.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yes; it's been very effective. An actor has to hustle, I’ve realized this year. If you don't hustle, forget it. Because this was a film, I was told, I couldn't be in; it was cast. It was so important to me. I had this flat in Paris, and I couldn't possibly go on living in Paris if I wasn't in this film. It would be the end of my career.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Such as it was.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I started hustling my agency, which is a very embarrassing thing to do, because you have to call them up every half hour. Well, [my agent] got me the interview, but only after I rang him for a week and a half.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Well, obviously, that's what I should be doing.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's so embarrassing, though. Because then they get so bored that the only way to make you stop calling is to get you a job.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Or fire you.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Or fire you. But that's more work. They can't fire you for making 20 phone calls.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">On American Actors</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Los Angeles actors can't do anything but skateboarding, really.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Considering that so many actors turn into directors, and everybody knows everybody, to hear you denigrate the rest of this honored profession as little more than skateboarders is something that—please, do not assign to me, but entirely at the door of Mr. Rupert Everett.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> No, I don't think all actors can skateboard; I certainly can't. London is world famous for its theatre; Hollywood is not at the cutting edge of theatre, is it? It's a place where movies are made. You can't have everything.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's very diplomatic.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">On Working With Robert Altman</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You're given a character idea of who you're supposed to be, and what the scenes will be. And you also know in advance in the script who your character knows, doesn't know, likes, doesn't like. Then you're put into a given situation, and then react, and you come up with your own dialogue, and it's then left to—</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Your stuff is excellent. Especially, "Pret-a-go-go-go." That's a fantastic line.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">"What lava lamps were to the ’70s, you are to the '90s. Go-go-go, pret-a-go-go."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Very good moment, that.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Thank you, Rupert. In </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Player</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, Bob said, "If you want to improvise and do stuff..." It's a combination. The writer has to give you the set-up to do it, because otherwise it would be complete free form. But once the sort of coat hanger, if you like, of the scene is set up, then you are encouraged, and given the responsibility to dress it accordingly. In other projects, you have to stick to the dialogue, and if the dialogue's not wonderfully written, you are desperate to improvise, and jig it up a bit, but sometimes people get very precious and think that they've written something in stone which you can't change. Sometimes, that's less than productive.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Why don't you wear socks? Don't you have very sticky feet?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I was just rushing.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Where are you going?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Nowhere.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Right.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Where are you going?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> To have lunch with Steve Martin.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> What are you talking about with Steve Martin?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> He wants me to do his play [</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Picasso at the Lapin Agile</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">] in London.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You're going to do a play in London?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah. It’s an hour and a half long, and it is by Steve Martin, so... </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">On Approaches to Acting</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Everybody wants to work, everbody wants to act. However they do it is such an individual thing.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Nobody pays the blindest bit of attention to anyone else anyway.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Well, you're the quintessence of the self-obsessed thespian.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">All thespians are self-obsessed.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You have to be, just to survive.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> An actor could be being mugged while on his porta-phone with his agent and not notice.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's true, that.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> We have egos like dogs colons. Which is, as opposed to human colons that go wrapping around like that, a dog's colon is just like a little squeeze box harmonica that goes "phew." That's what an actor's ego is like: huge and simple. And all-engulfing. So it doesn't really matter if you're using the Wang Ho method or Kabuki theater; nobody's going to notice except you.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">What I think is irritating about actors is that basically they're exactly like prostitutes.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's a boring thing to say, though.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's true. They always go on about "actor's sensitivity." For sensitivity, read: egocentricity. It's ego-sensitivity. They just want people to fancy them, basically.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's a chronic case of, "Watch me, Ma."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You want to be fancied; you want to be attractive.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You want to be watched, acknowledged.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Attractive.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Well, speak for yourself. You were born with all the chiseled cheekbones; I wasn't.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You know what this is going to come across like?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> What?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Two Portuguese hairdresser's assistants in Lisbon yappering away about their dismal prospects! I am going to write us a cop series.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, but you won't cast me.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Why? </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Because you're so treacherous. Lauren Bacall called you "the wickedest woman in Paris."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I asked you to be in a play [</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Milk Train Doesn't Stop Here Anymore</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">] with me this winter. It was like offering Al Pacino a job: It took four weeks for you to say no. Unbearable! </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I had a part, a lead, in a movie, very well paid, in Prague for two months. Your offer was 175 pounds a week to do a play in Glasgow. Now, tell me which one you would have chosen in my place? </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That movie will go straight to video, I predict.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It has about as much residue as doing that play in Glasgow.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Darling, that play in Glasgow's going to come to London, it'll be off-Broadway, it'll be a movie before you can say—</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> —In your wildest dreams. It's an unknown—and quite rightly so—Tennessee Williams play.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's not true. It's a very, very good play. And you would have been magisterial in it.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You wanted me in drag.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Not drag; she-man.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Who did you end up casting for it?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Rupert:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> An actress called Georgina Hale.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Richard:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Exactly! Thank you very much.</span></p></span><p><i> </i></p>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-3562147042415372402021-12-23T19:43:00.000-05:002021-12-23T19:43:06.676-05:00Throwback Thursday: Mrs. C and Mrs. G<p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="font-size: 13.2px; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgZ_f-3vSWAoA6tk3WMeE0OaaYHzpZxbyd3bryOty2wPM96o5lVGZoaqQttWKJoxwlt9-kjQA7DoEH56DDH_sWInpxWxHbQqCiwWJTEQr8ak-8wZbKF_yyCkyxVSYY_0LoD0ToL74KKYlJiyxc8VmSBHDHLeVRJqzdNm1zoX0srgeKXJhdC0w=s3186" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2153" data-original-width="3186" height="270" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgZ_f-3vSWAoA6tk3WMeE0OaaYHzpZxbyd3bryOty2wPM96o5lVGZoaqQttWKJoxwlt9-kjQA7DoEH56DDH_sWInpxWxHbQqCiwWJTEQr8ak-8wZbKF_yyCkyxVSYY_0LoD0ToL74KKYlJiyxc8VmSBHDHLeVRJqzdNm1zoX0srgeKXJhdC0w=w400-h270" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">photo by Gary Leonard</span></td></tr></tbody></table><i style="font-size: 13.2px;"><br /></i></p><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><i style="font-size: 13.2px;">I happened to have recently been going through old copies of </i><span style="font-size: 13.2px;">Back Stage West</span><i style="font-size: 13.2px;">, the actor's trade I ran from 1993 to 2003. This far-ranging and fascinating piece was in its very first free-standing issue, in February 1994. I was on hand to guide this conversation between two remarkable performers whose work I grew up on, but it's all their words. What a blessing to rediscover this. </i><i style="font-size: 13.2px;">Enjoy!</i></p><div><span id="docs-internal-guid-53de881d-7fff-59fd-a624-614e0f0075d2"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">ACTORS' DIALOGUE: Marion Ross and Charlotte Rae </span></p><br /><h2 style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-size: large;">On the Middle West, Middle Children, and Acting Naturally </span></span></h2><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Back Stage West, Feb. 10, 1994</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><br /></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">For </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Back Stage West</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">'s first Actors' Dialogue—in which we get two professionals together over lunch to discuss their craft, their business, and their lives—we chose a pair of unassuming television icons, Mrs. Cunningman and Mrs. Garrett.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">But as Marion Ross and Charlotte Rae discovered over a recent lunch at Alice's Restaurant on the endangered Malibu Pier, they have more in common than red hair and world-wide fame via syndication. For one, they've both starred in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Happy Days</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">: Rae in Beckett's, Ross in Garry Marshall's.</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">More importantly, over the years, they've built careers on the stage as well as the tube, raised families, been divorced, and sought out professional challenges even as they've settled into the security of success.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Didn't you do a musical with some of those Monty Python guys? What am I thinking of? A musical that you did, here in town. That was the first time I was aware of you. Before </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Into the Woods</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Was it Cole Porter's </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Out of This World</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, which they called </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Heavensent</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">? That's the first time I came out here; I played Juno.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I don't think so. Because you are a musical star, right?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> No, I'm an actress.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Or did you start in music?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I really have always sung. I started out in New York doing cabaret for a brief period of time. And that was wonderful. Everyone would come and see me—Jerome Robbins and everybody, they would come. It was the days of cabaret.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You mean in the Village?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Well, the Village Vanguard is where I started. Max Gordon—I'll never forget—I was there 14 weeks and I said, "Gee, Max, you think maybe, um, maybe I could have a little... raise?" I was making $150, that was my first thing. He said, "You know, I was thinking of changing the bill." I said, "Never mind, never mind."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I started under contract to Paramount when I was 22, and I got paid $150 a week. I'd been making $35 a week filing pieces of paper at Bullock's. This was in 1952. Here I was, a college graduate, San Diego State, with all kinds of honors and stuff. I had no skills, no way to earn a living, but I knew the alphabet. You knew the alphabet, you could file.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's what I did. I worked filing and typing at this management consultant company on East 38th, and at night I worked in a saloon called the Sawdust Trail. That was my very first job, with Theresa Brewer; we used to stand on the bar and sing every half hour.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And what would you wear? A little Western outfit?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> A gown. And right on the bar, they would roll in from the street, sawdust on the floor and ex-vaudevillians performing, singing waiters. My father came and started to cry because the cigarette woman tried to hustle him. And I had to reassure him that I wasn't a bad girl, that I was a reflection of him.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Where were you raised?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">In the Middle West. Where were you raised?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> In the Middle West.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Wisconsin.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Minnesota.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Well…</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Well, there we are, isn't that something?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> We're Middle Western girls.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Now, did you go to college?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I went to Northwestern.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Who all went to Northwestern when you were there?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Oh, there was Patricia Neal. And Jean Hagen—remember Jean Hagen?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Sure I do.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I always try to remember to mention her, because she's been gone for a while.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> That's right, and that was a tragic story. </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yes, but I'll tell you, she was so wonderful in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Asphalt Jungle</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. And in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Singin' in the Rain</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, when she played the silent movie star: "I can't staaaaand him." And Cloris Leachman, Bonnie Bartlett, Florence Stanley.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I was the only one from San Diego State that went ahead and made a career out of it.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You sure did.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Haven't we worked hard? It's very hard.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, and everyone thinks it's easy.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> At my age now—I’ll tell you my age, I’m 65—I could quit. Not that I’m going to quit, but I could take the pressure off myself. Not that I’m tired, but it's a milestone that I think I have to get through. Part of me wants to quit. I’m giving myself permission to say—I won't, of course, but it's like, "Gee, I've worked hard." I’ve driven myself.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I find now that I'm at this point in my life, I just do the things I really find a challenge, that I really want to do. I want it all, I'm greedy. I want the work, but I want my relationships with my family and my friends. I don't wanna give it up anymore for just the work, although the work helps keep you alive, it's very important for the brains and the spirit.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Paul [Michael] and I just did </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Love Letters</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> to raise money for the Pierce College Philharmonic Chorale. So, we had that little project to do. We're in business, the store is open, and stuff is goin' on. You create the business. It's quite an accomplishment to do what we've done. And we don't think about it.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> We have to try to acknowledge it ourselves.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And give ourselves credit for it, and say, Whew, now you could ease up. Please enjoy what you've done. When I first had my children, I was so busy thinking about my career, and this baby was—not in the way, but a friend of mine said, "Don't miss this," meaning the baby. I thought, "Uh oh, I hear this."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Now, to have a life and have a home—I’m like you, I want it all, too. Early on in my career, down at the La Jolla Playhouse I was understudying Ricki Soma, who turned out to be the mother of Anjelica Huston. This was the first professional thing I'd ever done, and there was an old man who was having a lot of trouble remembering his lines. It was embarrassing and frightening to see that. Then I talked to other actors, and I found they lived in hotel rooms. It was like a cold wind to see what a price these actors had paid. I didn't want that. I made a choice right then—no, no. I'm not gonna be... What a price.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> When I was in New York, the thing that made up my mind to come out here was the last play I did there, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Morning, Noon, and Night</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, for Ted Mann on Broadway. It got brilliant reviews and very few people came, and I saw a woman in the front row fixing her lipstick before we finished the play. And I said, "What am I killing myself for? I wanna reach masses of people." I love the theatre, but to give up so much…</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Now, let's talk about TV. So here we are, you and me. You must be known all over, everywhere—</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> The world. You, too.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Me, too.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's amazing.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I went to Italy two summers ago, and people stopped me on the street: "La Mama de Ricki! La Mama de Ricki!" I think, how can they recognize me?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I was in China, and people from Malaysia said, "Oh, hello, Mrs. Garrett." I go to Israel—"Mrs. Garrett! Mrs. Garrett!"</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> How many years were you on </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Facts of Life</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Seven. They wanted me to go on and renegotiate after my seven years, and I just didn't wanna do it</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You could walk away from all that money? Charlotte, did you ever regret that?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Never. It doesn't mean that much to me. When you come to my house, it's very cozy, very simple.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Plus, we don't do this for the money, do we? We don't, literally, do this for the money?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Oh, television, yes.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But it really still is not the goal, I don't think. Sylvie Drake said of your performance in the play </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Happy Days</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> by—</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Beckett, Samuel Beckett.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> She just couldn't say enough wonderful things, how wonderful you were in that. I didn't see it.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It was a challenge. It’s called a </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Hamlet </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">for women roles.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Was it difficult to learn?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yes.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I would think so.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But I think Beckett will someday go alongside Shakespeare, I really do.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That's an interesting thing.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And people think that Beckett is so depressing, but first of all, he has great empathy and understanding—for a man, his feeling for women is quite wonderful. I felt that Winnie, even though at the end of play she's up to her neck, somehow her gallant spirit, her noble soul—she’s filled with hope. I was really glad to do that. You've done those things, too; you've done challenges.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I did that whole one-woman show about Edna St. Vincent Millay, </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">A Lovely Light</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. I learned that in '88 when we had a strike and I had nothing to do. I would walk around the garden with the script in my hip pocket and learn it.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I saw it originally with Dorothy Stickney. There was group in New York called the Players' Club—it's still there—and they invited me to dinner there. Dorothy Stickney was so nervous; she was married to Howard Lindsey, and he showed me around the club; he looked a little like Teddy Roosevelt.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Was it the Players' Club that Edwin Booth started?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> In Gramercy Park.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Now this is theatre talk! Oh! The only play I ever did on Broadway in my early days was </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Edwin Booth</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> with Joe Ferrer. And we were taken to the Players' Club. I played Asia Booth; I had only one line: "How was John Wilkes killed?" "A bullet." As the weeks went on, on the road, going from La Jolla to San Francisco to New York, it got to be “booollet”—I would get more into that one word. "Booollet."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I went to New York and met Dorothy Stickney. She's like 92 years old. I went to her townhouse, and when you go in on the very bottom level, there's a little chaise and a loveseat that apparently was given to her by Lynn Fontanne. And when you go upstairs there's a portrait of her over the fireplace, a huge painting, as Mother in </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Life With Father</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. I was so moved to be there, that I was almost in tears—I was embarrassed, because I was so touched, meeting her. Photos of her friends are in the house—Helen Hayes, Katharine Cornell—I mean, it was the theatre that I wanted to be in, and it's an era that's gone. It was the days of the Theatre Guild. I remember my first year—I used to read</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Theatre Arts</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> magazine cover to cover while I was at Northwestern University, and even in high school. </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> So would I. I would go to the library in Alben Lea, Minnesota, and read the Theatre Arts magazine. There were schools listed, and I found a school in Minneapolis: Mcphail's School of Music and Drama. After the tenth grade. I got my mother to say, OK, I could go to Minneapolis. I worked for a family, took care of their children, so that I could take lessons at Mcphail—drama lessons. And I never wanted to go back to Albert Lea. The family said I could stay, and my mother let me. I didn't have any nice clothes, I didn't have any cashmere sweaters like the other girls did. And I never wore makeup and I never smoked cigarettes in the gym like the other girls did, cause I was gonna be different—I was going to be an actress. Isn't that something? Jesus.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> When I was 16 I went as an apprentice to the Players in Milwaukee, and Morton Da Costa—they used to call him "Teke"—and Eileen Heckert were there. And I would go to classes, and then I would play small roles, like Dead Body, or Maid, something with a couple of lines.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Now how did you get that way? Was it your mother's dream? How did you get like you are?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I come from Jewish middle-class parents. My older sister was an opera singer, but she gave it up to marry a neurosurgeon. My parents probably couldn't afford to do anything except earn a living. But my mother had a wonderful voice. I don't know.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You had to have a tremendous drive to do this, or you can't stick it out.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I just felt that it was the only thing I could do. When men proposed to me my senior year in college, it terrified me because I wasn't ready for that son of thing. I didn't even know who I was. I really had to get to New York to sort things out—my values and so on. I think if I had lived in Milwaukee, I would have probably ended up in a mental institution, because I'm just not middle-class, I can't conform to that. Don't get me wrong, I go home and I visit my family, my friends. But if I had to live there, I'd go nuts. I really would. It's not my cup of tea. And they're so lovely. It's not that they're dull; it's that I would be bored. Of course, today they have a wonderful performing arts center in Milwaukee. They have a lot going on there now. So maybe, if the weather were better, I'd reconsider. </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Our little town of Albert Lea, Minnesota, which probably has 18,000 people, now has an Equity Summer Theatre, the Minnesota Festival of the Arts. Paul and I went back last April and did </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Love Letters</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> and raised $13,000 in three performances for their theatre. The whole town stopped. There were billboards all over the banks, "Welcome, Marion," computer printouts across the windows. I said to Paul, "We gotta go in here, and we gotta get out as fast as we can." It's funny, but my whole goal in life was to get out of that town. I don't know where that comes from. </span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Maybe it's because you wanted to survive.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">My mother was a Canadian, a teacher, and she was quite an inspiring kind of person. I was raised with her saying, "You can be," "You can do," to have a large appetite for life, and to become somebody. Occasionally, I’ll talk to somebody and say, "Weren't you raised like that?" I was quite compelled to become somebody, and it was a mixed blessing. Part of me could sit down and cry any minute just thinking whatever it was I had to do. Even now, it's like, "Do I have to do this?" And yet I'm programmed for it. It's too late now; it’s a habit. "You can be." "OK, I will. I will, Mama. I will." And I’m the middle child, and I was the second daughter. So it's like, "Hello? Hello?" to get any attention.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Tell me about it. I’m a middle child too.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Yeah, so it's like, "Please look at me. Hey! Hey, guys." You know?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah, you sound like me.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> We have a lot in common, don't we, considering we don't know each other at all.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Not just the red hair and the Middle West. Being the middle one is quite something, 'cause you're not captain of the ship, like my older sister, and you're not darling cute.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Plus, my brother, who's 18 months younger than I, was a little crippled boy. He had a bad leg. I now realize I was the well child. Now I have great sympathy for the well child. Like when a family come would come to </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Happy Days</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> with a child in a wheelchair, and the other sibling was standing there so politely and so quietly, I would say, "What's your name? How are you?" because I have a lot of empathy for that. My parents were wonderful, but I had no place for my needs.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">One day I had my brother come out and we were painting this wall together with this roller, and we got kinda drunk on wine, and I finally told him my ambivalent feelings toward him. And I said I've finally gotten through all that, because if it weren't for you, I wouldn't be me, and now I'm so crazy about me, and what I am—if it weren't for you, this wouldn't have happened. I had to compensate. And all those emotions I use when I work.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> One of my sons is handicapped, and I was very careful to have the one who was not handicapped get a lot of attention, and kind of separated them a lot so he wouldn't have to go through some of the bizarre experiences he would have to go through. I’m glad I did that, because now, he says, "He's my brother." I feel lucky that I didn't lay too much on him.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> We've worked hard raising our children, building beautiful homes, sending them to college. Part of that was the motor for the career, as well as the loving of acting. I love acting, and acting is relatively... easy. You understand what I'm saying? Easy to do, because it is a natural thing to do. Even </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Brooklyn Bridge</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> wasn't hard, although I loved concentrating, working so concentratedly on her. But once I found her, then it wasn't hard at all, it’s like something you love. I love to act. Right now, though, TV doesn't interest me very much. Does it interest you? I'm not very interested in being on a series, I'll tell you that.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> No, I don't want another series. I'd like to do guest shots, or an in-and-out character once in a while.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I love the rush I get out of acting, I love the place I go inside me when I work. It's like having 20 different levels of yourself, like a complicated chess game, all going and all clicking at the same time. And you're alert and you're aware and you're in control, and all your techniques are working and you're trusting them, and you can pour that same coffee on that line from this angle—it's kinda thrilling to make all that work at the same time.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That's why, as maddening as film is—"Cut, please"—I think, "I can do that. You can say 'cut' to me a hundred times and I can do it. I can hit it in the same place and I can do it." And then sometimes when you're on stage, survive, now you've got a run going, and nobody's gonna be saying cut to you. But you've got other problems to accommodate, and it's taking all the problems like a giant puzzle and feeling all that wonderful stuff rush through your body.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I did a master class once, and the first thing that students say is, "How long did it take for you to make it?" It reminded me of when I was very young. I thought when I left Northwestern if I didn't become a successful working actress in one year I wanted to die. It's so funny, how young people have this concept that they've got to make it, but fast. I don't know what they mean by "make it," but I think they mean, you know, start getting to be </span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">successful. A lot of them have no technique, they just have a naturalistic way about them. I think it's good to develop a technique, and I think it's good for television series people to get on the stage. I think it's vastly important, because you can't just act natural all your life. There are other things to consider.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I'm very different from Mrs. C. I'm a professional woman, you know? I'm divorced. I'm a total opposite. I used to love to go to work on </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Happy Days</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, because that was the period in which I was raising my children. I was handling so much: divorced, alone, didn't have any money. I would go to work just to rest.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It was a vacation from life.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> But it was hard at work, because there's a dynamic in doing a series. It looked like we were all playing; we act like we're playing. But underneath there, it's a tough, hard game. If you spoil your joke, it's taken away from you and given to somebody else. In fact, on a Monday morning they'd say, "Marion, read all the girls' parts." You know, we're all scruffy, we look terrible, it's Monday morning, but my heart would go bubba-da-bubba-da, because I was auditioning always for those writers. I would be as good as I could be reading these parts, and these guys would die. So gradually they would write my part better, because I would show 'em what I could do.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I was conscientious, too. There is no such thing as sloughing it off. You'd always get the script the night before, and you'd look it over so that you had a concept of how you were gonna work it, because that's what you do.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> And you want to be the best you can. Occasionally, you will work with somebody who isn't prepared, and you think, what's blocking them? It's sometimes fear—not temperament, I see fear.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Remember Nat Hiken? He did </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Phil Silvers Show</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> and </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Car 54, Where Are You?</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I was Sylvia Schnauser, this emotional Bronx housewife, married to Leo Schnauser. She was a riot. The thing was, Nat Hiken once said to me, "I love what you bring when we come to work. First of all, you know your lines. Second of all, you do such detail work, and very seldom do I see that." And he said, "Why is it that actors are dying for a part, they cry and cry, and then you give 'em a part, and then they don't know their lines, they don't come prepared?"</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I used to tell kids who would be on </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Happy Days</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, not the stars, but some of the others who had lesser parts, and they'd wimp around about the size of their part, they'd pout a little bit—and I'd say, "You're here. You're in here. Make friends, be cute at lunch, be cute on the stage, be cute hangin' around—don't be sitting over here poutin'. You're in here! You got in the gate. If you don't belong, the policeman doesn't let you in that gate."</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> They didn't have any perspective.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> At Paramount one time—this was like 1952—one morning in makeup, somebody introduced me to this lovely young lady, and she stood up, and up, and up, and up, and up, and she was so charming. It was Audrey Hepburn, and she was there to do </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Roman Holiday</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. I went right home—I bought two candy bars first and got right on the bus. I was always plump. And I wanted to kill myself. It's like they say the three things an actress must pay attention to are, Watch your figure, watch your figure, and watch your figure. It's sweet revenge to come to this age and have that not matter and still be here, isn't it?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I have photos of me where I’m beautiful and thin, and then I have photos of me where I'm beautiful and fat. Right now, for health, I really wanna take it off. And then the byproduct is that you have more energy. I’m sure it's been the same with you as it is with me, that weight has never kept us from getting work, because thanks to God and the talent we have worked with and crafted, we were always fortunate enough to be working, to try out for stuff and we'd get it.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> My manager, Barbara Best, who has been with my career all these years, she would say, "When you feel that you're successful on an interview or something, what is it that people buy? What are they buying? What is it about you?" Like if you're a young actor, you'd say, "I have many sides," but if you could start to hone in on the one that sells well and show that that day. 'Cause an actor—part of the fun that I feel is to be able to lose myself in many roles, but if you're going to be a star, sometimes you're going to take that one saleable part and concentrate and develop that to the exclusion of the others. We don't wanna see Cary Grant or Clark Gable any other way, we want to see them just this way.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte: </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Or Spencer Tracy—they're wonderful actors, but they are persona actors. I find when I do my one-woman show, although I do many things with it, the narration is my persona.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Did you write this show?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> It's a long process. It would have been much easier if I had taken the life of one person, but it’s not. It's my stuff through the years.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> From the cabaret on?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Mostly theatre, cause I've done a lot of new theatre, a lot of stuff.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> You're going to do it in March at Northwestern. How many performances?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Two performances—one for faculty and students, and one for them to raise money.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I would love to take </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Love Letters</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> on a cruise. I’m ready. We have wonderful lives, don't we, Charlotte? Rich, wonderful lives.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Like I'm having my poker club on Saturday night. We put down a $10 ante.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> What's the most you've ever won?</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Charlotte:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> Once I won $17. I won't even put a nickel in a slot machine, but this is money well spent.</span></p><br /><p dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Marion:</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I would not gamble—I have never—I just gamble with my life.</span></p></span></div><p style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"></p><span id="docs-internal-guid-ce5d6645-7fff-dd6b-9d4d-65a594d638f2" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13.2px;"></span>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-86451731254012092682021-11-03T12:48:00.005-04:002021-11-03T12:49:07.892-04:00Wayback Wednesday: A Look Back at 'Twilight'<div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><i><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEho3LrDOJRhSJbWbhyphenhyphennaLTYtn19bG0vEmU37DYX9F1WbENzL2PBx6Ap8CM4aplawePVMp7ieEGUr-Qam21ELEmTCrMO3SprEciR3D0zZrPuux1xb4WAI0kUv84Dhb6lCuipgYFn/s1276/twilight-original.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1276" data-original-width="840" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEho3LrDOJRhSJbWbhyphenhyphennaLTYtn19bG0vEmU37DYX9F1WbENzL2PBx6Ap8CM4aplawePVMp7ieEGUr-Qam21ELEmTCrMO3SprEciR3D0zZrPuux1xb4WAI0kUv84Dhb6lCuipgYFn/w264-h400/twilight-original.jpg" width="264" /></a></div><br />It's hardly an exaggeration to say that </i>Twilight: Los Angeles, 1992 <i>was a formative work for me</i>—<i>i</i><i>ndeed, one of a series of groundbreaking works that Gordon Davidson's Mark Taper Forum staged in its prime, and which I was lucky to be on hand for (this roster also included </i>Angels in America<i>, </i>The Kentucky Cycle<i>, and various works by Culture Clash, among others). As I am currently writing a piece about a new </i>Twilight <i>revival at the Signature Theatre in New York City, it's an apt time to look back on my review of the original production.</i></span></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Catcher in the Riots</span></h2><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><i>Anna Deavere Smith's illuminating 'Twilight'</i></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Los Angeles Downtown News, June 21, 1993</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>by Rob Kendt</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Arbritators and mediators, in labor terms, are very different things. An arbritrator makes legally binding decisions in an impasse; a mediator gets people to talk in hopes of compromise but without the promise, or the threat, of a final solution.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">In <i>Twilight: Los Angeles, 1992</i>, playing at the Mark Taper Forum through July 18, Anna Deavere Smith proves herself an accomplished mediator—and, as with many labor disputes, one who’s been called in from out of town. At the Taper’s commission, this self-styled docudramatist/performance artist from San Francisco has spent the last year talking to srores of Angelenos about the riots, the police, Rodney King and their city’s fragile order. In <i>Twilight</i>,<i> </i>the resulting two-hour theater piece, Smith renders a couple dozen of these interviews verbatim—the theatrical equivalent of a live feed.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">The verdict? First, not guiity on one count: the charge, levelled by a number of local artists last year, that Smith is a cultural interloper, an outsider with no business limning “our town”—at least not before L.A.-based performers had a chance.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">The grumblers might have grounds if her show had turned out a fiasco. It did not; in fact, it is much better than could be expected. For in presenting the unique, startling compendium of voices, mannerisms, and details that make up <i>Twilight</i>, Smith gives us an L.A. portrait as loving as it is challenging.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">And the power of its questing intelligence may have as much to do with the rigidly interlocking objectivity of her approach as with her actual physical objectivity, her looking in on a city she had known only passingly at best.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Prickly Mood</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">There is one woman on the stage, but she stands on the shoulders not just of her many interview subjects (see sidebar), but of the Taper's supportive staff, crew, director Emily Mann, and a rainbow coalition of dramaturgs—Elizabeth Alexander, Oskar Eustis, Dorinne Kondo and Hector Tobar. Sound like too many cooks?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Remarkably, it's not. Smith enacts characters as wide-ranging as ex-gang members, Korean shop owners, a Westside talent agent and a pair of jurors (one from the Simi Valley trial and one from the recent federal trial), with little more than a table, some chairs, a cabinet, a few coats and hats, some assorted small props. There is also the effective, if ascetic, lighting design by Allen Lee Hughes, and Lucia Hwong's prickly transitional music cues, used as throat-clearing mood breaks by sound designer Jon Gottleib.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">And, early on, Smith leaves the stage to let 15 TV screens play a portentous riot montage by Jon Stolzberg, with Hwong's overstated music wilting the lily. This hectoring video cut-up turns out to be the evening's sole misstep.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Fugue Buzz</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">The rest showcases Smith's uncanny knack for suggestive impersonation, a matter of cadence, gesture, and attitude calibrated to a scintilla. And as the chorus of disparate voices grows, a kind of astringent, non-tonal harmony emerges.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">In the most mundanely laudable sense, Smith has created a dialogue among people who may never speak or even meet, including the audience. But <i>Twilight</i>'s form and impact more resembles music than theater: It's a fugue of discrete experiences, seen from different angles, all gathered and reproduced with such clarity that we come out practically humming its buzz; we're full of stories told by people we feel we know better.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">Could a local artist have done the same? Hard to say. Does Taper director Gordon Davidson spend too much time hunting in New York (where he saw Smith's Crown Heights piece, <i>Fires in the Mirror</i>, last year, and quickly snapped her up for <i>Twilight</i>)? Perhaps.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;">But this doesn't take away from Smith's achievement. Twilight makes a rare and stunning case not so much for "respecting diversity" as for allowing social complexity to retain its complexity, for preserving its surreal, horrible humor and poetry. This is the stuff of art, and Angelenos should welcome it as a gift of the Magi</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">or at least, as the work of a skilled mediator. Federal arbitration, as we've seen, is a last resort.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial;"><i>Twilight will play through July 18 at the Mark Taper Forum, 135 N. Grand Av. "Pay What You Can" performances are offered July 3-4. Call (213) 972-0700.</i></span></p></blockquote><div><br /></div>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-59505859740962503222021-10-28T07:50:00.004-04:002021-10-28T12:11:33.185-04:00Throwback Thursday: The Music of 'Hot l Baltimore'<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhEpd-5zKrwDz-L16cBThY-DFNH8YAObtLWoa7MZswiSsxS9pNOR5uJBC4UdmSGYxJIpPDhj5GmV0xfUBFV8qaXUjXvd20osyE4RQjXz9Ih16hpDr9YTfbrpq-jxhoXYo82Df2L/s475/hotlbaltimore.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="475" data-original-width="285" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhEpd-5zKrwDz-L16cBThY-DFNH8YAObtLWoa7MZswiSsxS9pNOR5uJBC4UdmSGYxJIpPDhj5GmV0xfUBFV8qaXUjXvd20osyE4RQjXz9Ih16hpDr9YTfbrpq-jxhoXYo82Df2L/w240-h400/hotlbaltimore.jpg" width="240" /></a></div><br />At <i>American Theatre </i>I've often (though not often enough) had the pleasure of assigning and publishing pieces by my brilliant friend and colleague <a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/byline/isaac-butler/">Isaac Butler</a>. But there was a time when he assigned and edited me, for his blog Parabasis; once he asked me contribute <a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2021/10/lonergan-off-again.html">my thoughts on Kenneth Lonergan and </a><i><a href="lonergan">This Is Our Youth</a> </i>for a package of pieces he called "The Adolescence Issue," and another time he had me write about Lanford Wilson's <i>Hot l Baltimore </i>for a package of stories about that underrated American playwright. I've only seen the play onstage once, in a lovely if small-scaled production at Burbank's Little Victory Theatre back in 1996; if I reviewed it then (I think I did), I don't think I have the clipping. This tribute to the play will have to do. This is the post as it appeared on Sept. 30, 2011. <p></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><i>Editor's Note: Rob Weinert-Kendt, who is an absolute badass when it comes to theatre and music, has brought his keen eye and keener pen to Lanford Wilson's </i>The Hot l Baltimore<i>, discussing how musicality works within a play where there is no actual music.</i></p><p>No one sings a note in Lanford Wilson’s sprawling yet nimble 1973 ensemble piece <i>The Hot l Baltimore</i>. So why does the play’s character list suggest vocal ranges for nearly half of the dozen characters, from night clerk Bill Lewis (“Baritone”) to prostitute April Green (in possession of a “mellow alto laugh”), and at least make a point of mentioning the vocal quality of all the rest (“thin-voiced” Mrs. Bellotti, Mr. Morse’s “high, cracking voice”)? It’s a clear sign upfront that Hot L Baltimore was constructed as a piece of music as much as a play—that Wilson heard it chorally. And indeed, the overlapping dialogue that was a signature of Wilson’s first major full-length, <i>Balm in Gilead</i>, is in evidence here, but is here more assuredly orchestrated, less jagged and cacophonous, with clear leading lines and supporting accompaniment.</p><p>But the musical quality of <i>Hot l</i> is more than a simple effect or device; it’s not only a matter of sound. It’s embedded into the structure of the play; its three acts follow, with uncanny, almost impersonal discipline, a classical three-part sonata form, which is the bones of all the great classical symphonies: theme, development, capitulation. The first act introduces the characters and their concerns in turn, as Bill, the hotel’s night clerk, places a rhythmic series of 7 a.m. wakeup calls, while Girl—a 19-year-old call girl who’s tried on the names Billy Jean, Lilac Lavender, and Martha without letting any of them stick—lingers behind the desk as a not entirely unwelcome annoyance. We quickly learn not only that this shabby, faded hotel is something of a losers’ last resort but that it’s destined for demolition. Apart from the residents—a trio of prostitutes, two retirees, an antsy young hustler and her slow little brother—the place sees only business visitors (johns, a cab driver, a pizza delivery man) and a sad pair of family relations interceding on behalf of former tenants.</p><p>It’s the usual outsiders’ gallery, in other words, the sort Wilson was famous for humanizing right up to the edge of romanticizing them. He gives Girl and Millie, a kindly but distracted retired waitress, a kind of yin/yang dialogue about the passing of time (Millie’s resigned to it, the Girl can’t abide it), and this constitutes much of the thematic development in Act Two, which otherwise involves the efforts of a young college refugee, Paul, to find his grandfather’s last known address, and the posturings of Jamie and Jackie, more-pathetic-than-scary hustlers trying to subsist on natural foods and the occasional larceny. Along the way, Wilson’s characters draw the obvious links between the decay of the hotel and of its residents' desperation with the crumbling state of the American polity. “If my clientele represents a cross-section of American manhood, the country’s in trouble,” says the wisecracking whore April, in a typical one-liner.</p><p>But what’s striking about these, and a number of other tart social observations, is that they’re mostly delivered offhand, effectively absorbed into the naturalistic ebb and flow of hotel lobby traffic—into the forward motion of the larger piece. And while Girl is the sort of heart-on-her-sleeve naif given to passionately youthful, painfully sincere pronouncements (“I want to see a major miracle in my lifetime!”), she gets no bravura, time-bending soliloquy, of the sort Darlene gets in <i>Balm in Gilead</i>.</p><p>In fact, nobody in <i>Hot l</i> gets speeches like that. Not only is there no big having-it-all-out, here’s-where-I-draw-the-line monologue; there’s no big showdown, either. The closest the play has to a climax is the champagne toast offered by Suzy, the svelte whore who constitutes zaftig April’s nemesis, as she departs in a cab for greener pastures and she and April spar to the point of mild tears one last time.</p><p>Throughout, the longest speeches are given to Girl, whose commentary provides something of a tissue for the play; she has a curiously moving—and yes, musical—moment in which she rattles off the names of a series of American cities, from Amarillo to Utica. And Millie has a series of reveries about her family in Act Two—slightly harrowing recollections of her family’s vanishing wealth that crack the play’s patina of nostalgia. Obviously decay and dissolution weren’t invented by the 1970s, any more than peace and love were by the ’60s.</p><p>And though all of the residents appear in all three acts, which span 17 hours of this mostly uneventful Memorial Day, Bill—the laconic night clerk who is in many ways the audience’s stand-in, the relatively sane lens through which we’re meant to view the action, and who seems in his own passive way to be quietly smitten with Girl—is entirely absent for the long second act. This isn’t just true to his situation—he’s the night clerk, after all, and the second act is set in the afternoon—it’s also a key signal that Wilson has made the individual voices in his play subordinate to the larger form and themes. This will not be primarily the story of Bill pining for Girl, or of the two having some kind of centrally meaningful exchange, at least not any more than anyone else has a meaningful exchange in this not-quite-a-home, not-quite-an-impersonal-business limbo (indeed, in the geography of Lanford Wilson’s America, <i>Hot l</i> sits uneasily, purgatorially between the cruel, low-life diner of <i>Balm in Gilead</i> and the fractured household of <i>Fifth of July</i>). Throughout the second act, collegiate Paul effectively stands in for Bill as a male object for Girl’s enthusiasm. But then Paul, too, recedes in Act Three, even as Girl takes on his grandfather search as her personal crusade; he’s not really all that interested anymore, either in Girl or in his grandfather.</p><p>Bill is there for this final act, though, as the long day ends, and themes that have been sounded before repeat themselves, only differently, as the Act Two development that has come between them—again, not story “development” per se, as plot strands will be left tangled in a heap like so many extension cords in a hotel closet, but <i>thematic</i> development—has shaded and recast them. Bill’s inchoate longing is one that resurfaces: There’s a devastating stage direction, seemingly out of nowhere, as Girl traipses upstairs after Suzy’s champagne farewell. It reads simply, “Bill looks off after her, aching.” It’s a note that Bill can’t play with his baritone, but it’s that note of sweet, unarticulated pain that sounds most strongly throughout this beautiful, haunted play.</p></blockquote>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-6188247082595670952021-10-27T16:36:00.000-04:002021-10-27T16:36:09.754-04:00That's Sahl, Folks<p><span style="font-family: arial;">The passing of humorist Mort Sahl has occasioned no better piece than Jason Zinoman's in the <i>Times</i>. You should <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/27/arts/television/mort-sahl-comedy-legacy.html">go read that now</a>. For a chaser, you might check out this <i>Interview</i>-style dialogue I hosted between Sahl and Jimmy Tingle nearly a quarter century ago. I remember Sahl as being a fairly surly, even unpleasant guy, but there are some gems in here (alongside his egregious sexism and obligatory Clinton-bashing).</span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b><i>BACK STAGE WEST</i></b></span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">April 09, 1998</span></p><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Humorists' Dialogue: Jimmy Tingle & Mort Sahl</b></span></h2><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Reporting by Rob Kendt</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">As we near the end of the American century, we have no shortage of comedians. But how many true humorists do we have? Humorists</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">comic philosophers who typically work in longer forms than three-minute sets, comedy sketches, or cobbled-together "books" of well-worn material</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">do indeed seem on the wane in our attention-deficit-disordered media culture.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Mort Sahl has weathered many generations of political and cultural change, first hopping onto the stage of the hungry i nightclub in San Francisco in 1954 between the folk acts to skewer the politics of his time. He always carried the day's paper under his arm, and there was always an offhandedly heavyweight intellect behind his material, which shied neither from the vagaries of pop culture nor the nitty-gritty of U.S. foreign policy. After years working in both politics and in the movie business, Sahl took some fresh 1996 election-year musings to stages in San Francisco, L.A., and New York in <i>Mort Sahl's America</i>.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Carrying the torch of intelligent political comedy is Boston-born comic Jimmy Tingle, whose part-autobiographical, part-topical one-man show <i>Uncommon Sense </i>plays at the Coast Playhouse in West Hollywood through Apr. 19. The show has also played at the Hasty Pudding Theatre in Cambridge and Off-Broadway; Tingle appears regularly on National Public Radio's Heat and on Jim Hightower's nationally syndicated radio show Chat and Chew.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Tingle and Sahl got together recently at the Sonora Cafe to discuss the state the art and the state of the union.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort Sahl:</b> Jokes come out of point of view. And the reason there's nothing residual to a lot of the guys you see work is that they don't have any point of view. They'll say, The audience isn't interested in politics or social issues. Maybe. But there used to be shared values with the audience. There was a time in this country when you were part of the majority rather than a bunch of fractionated minorities. Not just political values; it was shared values of romance and justice. You could go to a movie, and the movies were about dreams, not nightmares. I mean, today, what would you say</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">"I had a great time at this movie because I've always wanted to be an outlaw and go across the country robbing 7-11 stores"? (I'm sure this restaurant is full of filmmakers who are making small, passionate, personal films.)</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy Tingle:</b> And the point of view has changed. It seems that a lot of the jokes are less about the big picture and more about the everyday foibles of people, rather than the shortcomings of the political debate; it seems that the issues have taken a back seat, really, to the characters of the people. And that can only go so far.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> That's part of the feminization of America; the men have been feminized.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy: </b>I'm not feminized, Mort! Actually, though, I am a feminist.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> But remember that the guys practicing that observational comedy have never been in the Army; they've never lived with a woman. They're observers--of what? Based on what? They've never been to a university, usually. You've got to go through some privation, besides what your parents do to you.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">In the old days, when Sid Caesar and those kind of people were on, 10 writers would get in a room and try to focus where the joke is. Most of the comedians you see today would have started there, as writers, and they would learn the craft. Today, in a rock 'n' roll world, you're a star before you're a performer. You come and you go before you find out why you were there.</span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Pout and Scowl</span></h3><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> In our neighborhood, the Kennedys were gods. My mother grew up on Jack's campaigns. And there was something there. It was the Democratic Party of the 1960s, and there was a lot of idealism at the time. A lot of that has gone. The Democratic Party has become more of a corporate party. They have to get on television, so they have to raise billions of dollars; it doesn't matter sometimes where it comes from.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> It's the left wing of the Republican Party. I mean, you're talking about Camelot, but what they've got up there is Dogpatch. Kennedy had a pretty good sense of humor, by the way. Have you ever heard a joke from Bill Clinton? Reagan had a very ready sense of humor. It wasn't subtle, but it was available. Clinton pouts and scowls, bites his lip and cries a lot. I've never heard a joke from him. Or Gore, for that matter.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> He needs a writer, Mort.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> Why hasn't he recruited anybody? He's got Carville and those guys</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">attack dogs</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">but nobody with any sense of social ridicule. Kennedy had a very intellectual sense of humor. He was actually an intellectual, if the truth were known. Now, of course, his honor is attacked with great regularity. It would be nice if some of the surviving family would defend his honor; that would be refreshing, instead of having a yard sale.</span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Party's Over</span></h3><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> If I were doing a show tonight, I would say that Reagan could arouse passion in people, make them wanna march. Clinton doesn't arouse any passion in anyone, including Paula Jones and Kathleen Willey. I mean, the audience could decide whether they would want to laugh, 'cause they might want to defend his</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">I hesitate to use the word <i>honor</i>. If you wanted to get really tough, you could say: I admire the president, because any guy who could get a girl from Brentwood to do all these wonderful things for him deserves to be president, maybe even have a third term. But you can't do anything on the Republicans, 'cause there aren't any. There's no party. They're remarkably silent.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> They're letting the press do the work. They don't have to say anything. They're starting to, a little bit. Quayle was on the other day talking about moral character. He's going to run for president in the year 2000. That would be good for us.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> I don't know.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> I mean for us</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">not us, the people, but you and I, doing political humor.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> Oh, yes.</span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Go After Everybody</span></h3><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> Mort, I've always wanted to ask you: What do you think the chances are of doing an overtly political show on television? Can you even do real politics on television, never mind comedy?</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> Well, when I started, it was totally illogical, and that was my advantage. A handicap always becomes a virtue if you're the only one who can do it. I think if we went on CNN on Friday night, and we said, "This was the week," and four of us chopped it up with our own points of view, it would go through the roof. The guys you'd propose it to, they'd tell you it can't be done, because it isn't being done. What is being done? Instead of satire, you have bitchery; instead of news, you have gossip; instead of exposure of political hypocrisy, you have jealousy. Those are the values that are traded. And that's what I mean by feminization. You need a really subversive program that would go after everybody.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> But do think it's possible to get a show like that on the air?</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> I think there'd be great resistance, but I think it would stay on 20 years once you've got it on.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> I think <i>Politically Incorrect </i>does a service, because it's a discussion, and I think it's entertaining, but I don't think it's subversive.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> <i>Politically Incorrect</i>? I heard that guy defend the Vietnamese War, Maher. He says, "If you gotta draw a line in the sand and stop Communism, I'm for it." Do you know anybody that liked the Vietnamese War? General Westmoreland and Bill Maher. And then, to buttress his opinions, you have his guests: "Here she is, she plays the blacksmith on <i>Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman</i>," and she plugs the show and says that Eskimos should be anchormen. I bet if you watch <i>Politically Incorrect </i>tonight, they'll be talking about Clinton's sex life. True?</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> But Mort, they're responding to what's in the headlines, to the media. I gotta say, when I watch <i>Politically Incorrect</i>, I think they're doing a service, in the sense that it's as good as the news is</span><span style="font-family: arial;">—</span><span style="font-family: arial;">it's a reflection of the news.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> That's a terrible indictment, Jimmy.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy:</b> I wonder if it's even possible to do a show that attacks or satirizes corporate America when they're required to finance the show.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> The bigger outfits are terribly secure. It's the guys in between who worry. The big guys are often scholarly and cultured, and they'll laugh.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy: </b>They're not threatened.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> Exactly. But there's also a factor of self-censorship. Most kids wanna sell in; it's not a matter of selling out anymore.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Jimmy: </b>Well, it's tough to make people angry at you, to take a risk. It's tough to do material that you know isn't going to go anywhere, that isn't going to get a laugh, but it's coming from a point of view that you believe in. But at least you feel good about what you're doing.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><b>Mort:</b> If the audience knows you're right, and they sense that they didn't stand up at the opportune moment, they feel they're being chastised. So you go from being a comedian who's giving them escape to being a nun who's hitting 'em in the knuckles. But if that's what it's gonna take...You have to tell the truth and keep it funny. That's all you have to do. That's a lot, though.</span></p></blockquote>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-88229524472137656642021-10-24T08:52:00.003-04:002021-10-24T08:54:07.370-04:00The Review Files: The Richness of 'Caroline' <p><span style="font-family: arial;"> <img alt="Ravishing and Ravaging" height="300" src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/CRePuIMcJhobB-wbmAA4Jsj81PdjJOmkVX51cxfgJKzPzmYgLuMpY-umHA65fhrEG6s9YNrkMShj2CdtFMjVI05XHMnk_ozMhFa0cwrkLRXUo_mI7MuwP-R_yyTmey88eOhZAFJ5=w400-h300" style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-size: 10.5pt; margin-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; white-space: pre-wrap;" width="400" /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: x-small;"><i>Kenna Ramsey, Tracy Nicole Chapman and Marva Hicks personify a radio in </i>Caroline, or Change<i>. Photo by Craig Schwartz.</i></span></p><div><span style="font-family: arial;">I was fortunate last night to catch the new Broadway revival of <i><a href="https://www.roundabouttheatre.org/get-tickets/2021-2022-season/caroline-or-change/">Caroline, or Change</a></i>, which hit me all over again with a compressed version of my previous history with it—in short, that <a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2004/11/sweet-caroline.html">on my first viewing it felt like too much, a hothouse flower</a>, but on second viewing I could see it clearly as the sui generis masterpiece it is. Some great works demand such a revisit to be fully embraced; that they can stand up to a second or third look is just one measure of their greatness. I may have more to say about the new <i>Caroline </i>production, which could not possibly be better, but for now I want to share my review of the 2004 production that came to the Ahmanson Theatre in L.A. with most of the original cast. Almost everything I say here I would stand by and is true of the new production—including that the show still feels like something genuinely new, even almost two decades later.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: arial;"><br /></span></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="font-size: large;"><b>Ravishing and Ravaging</b></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: arial;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><i>Kushner's 'Caroline' Entertains, Despite the Heavy Themes</i></span></span></span></div><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: arial;">by Rob Kendt</span></span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; white-space: pre-wrap;"><i><span style="font-family: arial;">Los Angeles Downtown News, Nov. 22, 2004</span></i></span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;">Musical theater's fuel is big, world-stopping emotion: the joy of new love, the pang of fresh heartbreak, the resilient hope of the cockeyed optimist.</span></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">Anger is a less common shade in the Broadway palette; you'll see the momentary fit of pique ("I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Out of My Hair") or paranoia ("Getting Married Today"), a sneer ("Officer Krupke") or a soul-wrench (Carousel's "Soliloquy"). For sheer existential rage, the kind of savage breast-beating not even music can calm, only </span><i style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">Sweeney Todd</i><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;"> and </span><i style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">Ragtime</i><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">'s Coalhouse Walker Jr. come close, and neither reach the point of murderous extremity until fate kicks them to the curb.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">In the ravishing, and ravaging, new musical </span><i style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: Arial; white-space: pre-wrap;">Caroline, or Change</i><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">, at the Ahmanson Theatre, black maid Caroline Thibodeaux (the incomparable Tonya Pinkins) starts the show mad, seething in a sweltering Louisiana basement circa 1963. She never gets over it. Instead, like the washing machine she dutifully loads, Caroline goes through spin cycles of wrath and irritation. She only comes clean at the show's heartrending climax, a "Rose's Turn"-style soliloquy in which she pleads with God not to let her anger make her evil. This is new—a reimagining of the musical not in terms of form, which playwright Tony Kushner and composer Jeanine Tesori play with freely and dexterously, but in terms of what a musical can contain, how much weight it can bear.</span></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">In telling the autobiographical story of a young Jewish boy, Noah Gellman (Sy Adamowsky, who alternates with Ben Platt), who learns a complicated lesson in class, race and economic oppression from Caroline, his family's bitter domestic, Kushner manages an astonishing feat of heartfelt hindsight. He sets the ebullient, transgressive wonder of childhood curiosity on a collision course with some hard-edged adult realities and doesn't flinch from the inevitable crash, or try to tidy up the wreckage.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">The show's final hopeful notes are tenuous indeed: Noah is too young to understand what his confrontation with Caroline might mean, but we leave knowing that some kind of understanding (or at least a great musical) is in his future, just as we know that Caroline's three children, particularly the proud Emmie (Anika Noni Rose), can only hold their heads high because they've rejected their mother's corrosive defeatism.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">As terrible as a load-bearing musical may sound—isn't that what opera's for?—the great news about <i>Caroline, or Change</i> is that it's a full-service entertainment. Tesori's restless, accomplished score is an able partner in the storytelling and characterization: Caroline has her own strange, gripping blues idiom, which she plays off a gallery of glittering personifications of her washer (Capathia Jenkins), dryer (Chuck Cooper) and radio (the shimmering girl group of Tracy Nicole Chapman, Marva Hicks, and Kenna Ramsey). Her kids (Rose, Leon G. Thomas III and Corwin Tuggles) sing infectious schoolyard-rhyme pop that's a cousin to Noah's tuneful, openhearted parlando. Noah's distant father (David Costabile) sings in plaintive tones that echo his clarinet playing, while his tetchy stepmom (Veanne Cox) has a steely, sunny tone belied by her music's awkward dissonance.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">There's also a priceless, hora-infused Chanukah scene with Noah's grandparents (Larry Keith, Alice Playten, Reathel Bean) that encapsulates mid-century Jewish Americana with the sort of wicked but warm-hearted humor only an insider could pull off.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Riccardo Hernandez's simple, shape-shifting set and the often stark lighting by Jules Fisher and Peggy Eisenhauer have the right rough magic for the musical's free, unbounded mix of the real and the dreamlike. Not everything in director George C. Wolfe's production works so well: While I liked the conceit of the personified appliances, and a haunting, death-like city bus played by Cooper, the introduction of a motherly, benedictory moon (Aisha de Haas) feels a misstep into generic symbolism. Additionally, a few of Kushner's otherwise mostly deft lyrics veer into forced-rhyme doggerel.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">But there are few such bum notes in this bittersweet <i>Caroline</i>. Steered by the unblinking Pinkins, this is a rare Broadway vehicle indeed: a musical with genuine tragic dimensions and a catchy heartbeat.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Caroline, or Change<i> plays through Dec. 26 at the Ahmanson Theatre, 135 N. Grand Ave., (213) 628-2772 or taperahmanson.com.</i></span></span></p></blockquote><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white;">
</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial;"><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;"></span></span></p>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-58320790711167284422021-10-06T14:41:00.008-04:002021-10-06T14:50:18.923-04:00Lonergan, Off Again<p><span style="font-family: arial;"></span></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi6N28EyWKk1jILdd1z3X1I7-u6yMbTsBr6Sq1LcX5nzFGc3SI9krRexIgU_f4MvYuaguZdUqMp8bY3qXACsDyb_C3rzp0ndLeo1WTIrEg11JCXzt7j4wokVMm2f2N2NJ2im7BO/s959/rawImage.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="640" data-original-width="959" height="268" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi6N28EyWKk1jILdd1z3X1I7-u6yMbTsBr6Sq1LcX5nzFGc3SI9krRexIgU_f4MvYuaguZdUqMp8bY3qXACsDyb_C3rzp0ndLeo1WTIrEg11JCXzt7j4wokVMm2f2N2NJ2im7BO/w400-h268/rawImage.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">Major Matt Mason.</span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="font-family: arial;"><br />In July of 2012, my friend and fellow blogger Isaac Butler asked me write a piece about Kenneth Lonergan's <i>This Is Our Youth </i></span><span style="font-family: arial;">for an "Adolescence Issue" of his blog Parabasis.</span><span style="font-family: arial;"> One sticking point: I'd never seen it, though not for lack of trying. I discovered in my research for the piece that despite the splash it made Off-Broadway in 1998, it had been remarkably scarce on U.S. stages. (In addition to reading the script, I was able to catch <a href="https://latw.org/title/our-youth">an audio recording of the original cast doing the play</a>.) I spun <i>Youth</i>'s relative onstage scarcity, not to mention a lack of new work from its writer, into a whole thesis about Lonergan having "gone silent"</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b2b2b; font-family: arial;">—a take I was happy to see quickly demolished by the </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b2b2b; font-family: arial;">the release of the full cut of his contested film </span><i style="color: #2b2b2b; font-family: arial;">Margaret</i><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b2b2b; font-family: arial;">, the </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b2b2b; font-family: arial;">long-overdue Broadway bow of <i>This Is Our Youth </i>in 2014, the triumph of his 2016 film <i>Manchester by the Sea</i>, and the devastatingly great 2018 Broadway run of <i><a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2018/11/16/kenneth-lonergans-waverly-gallery-makes-belated-and-brilliant-broadway">The Waverly Gallery</a></i>.</span><p></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b2b2b; font-family: arial;">That immediately dated take aside, I think the rest of my piece, placing <i>This Is Our Youth </i>in the context of both when it was written and when it was set, holds up and is worth having out in the world (now that Isaac's blog is <a href="https://parabasis.typepad.com/blog/2012/08/the-adolescence-issue-lonnergan-off-again.html">password-protected</a>). I've republished it below, with Isaac's blessing, including his intro. This hit the World Wide Web on Aug. 2, 2012.</span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><i>Whether or not we've got the longest adolescence in the history of the world, we sure do keep returning to narratives about it all the time. <a href="http://www.themillions.com/2012/05/in-defense-of-autobiography.html">Whether or not this is a good thing</a> is a debate I'm all for having, but for the purposes of this issue, I suppose I'm a little more interested in what we say with these narratives. We have two pieces on that very subject. The first, from Rob Weinert-Kendt, focuses on Kenneth Lonergan's "This Is Our Youth," one of my favorite plays. </i></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b2b2b; font-family: arial;">—Isaac Butler</span><span style="font-family: arial;"> </span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">What does it say about my generation that its putative voice—the playwright who once seemed like he might be the John Osborne, the Arthur Miller, possibly the Lanford Wilson of Generation X—has all but gone silent? True, few artists worth a damn would ever claim the mantle of generational spokesman, and dramatists—generally a high-minded and thin-skinned lot, at once self-doubting and self-important—probably least of all. But even in his heyday around the turn of the millennium, Kenneth Lonergan seemed singularly uninterested in speaking for anyone, and since then, with just two Off-Broadway plays since 2001, in speaking much at all (it was reassuring, if painful, to read that he's been partly waylaid in the interim by <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/kenneth-lonergans-thwarted-masterpiece.html">an Herculean struggle to get a single film completed</a>).</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Of course, in this obstinacy to be cornered or to wear a label, even that of “working playwright,” Lonergan may be the quintessential Gen-Xer: unpinnable, unmarketable, hushed into reflexive passivity by the solipsism and apparent hypocrisy of the Boomers who came before. It's a shame, though, because his signature works—the film <i>You Can Count On Me</i>, the plays <i>Lobby Hero </i>and <i>This Is Our Youth</i>—in fact did speak, in their halting, layered, ironic, exquisitely observed way, of and for a generation marked by lowered expectations, thoroughgoing mistrust balanced by a private and often blurry idealism, and inconspicuous consumption. My people.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">I lived on the West Coast until 2005, where I narrowly missed a chance to stumble upon Lonergan in his creative infancy: In 1993, a one-act called <i>Betrayed by Everyone </i>was first staged at the tiny Met Theater in Hollywood, starring a young up-and-comer from the local theater scene named Mark Ruffalo. It wasn’t until 1996, when an expanded version of that one-act, now with the portentous title <i>This Is Our Youth </i>and still starring Ruffalo, garnered rave reviews at New York’s INTAR Theatre, that Lonergan’s name came into my consciousness. I took a rooting interest in it based on Ruffalo's participation; by then he was something of an L.A. theater star, having memorably <a href="http://www.robkendt.com/Reviews/collectedplaystanner.jpg">starred in plays by local hero Justin Tanner</a>; I was happy to hear that his performance as Warren Straub, a troubled but lovable pothead teen, in Lonergan’s play was earning him comparisons to a young Marlon Brando. As for the play, it was reportedly little short of an annunciation: Here, those who’d seen it either said or implied, might be the next Great American Play, or at the very least the next Great American Playwright.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">It was brought back again in 1998 by Second Stage with the same cast, but I never ended up seeing it—because, in fact, productions of this Great American Play have been startlingly thin on the ground, particularly compared to Lonergan’s widely performed 2001 play <i>Lobby Hero</i>, which I managed to <a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jul/16/entertainment/et-stage16">see twice</a> in just a few years in Southern California (and which my colleague Jason Zinoman has called not only the better play but <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/theater/reconsidering-lobby-hero-by-kenneth-lonergan.html">the best American play of the 2000s</a>). <i>This Is Our Youth</i> has had three runs at regional LORT houses: at <a href="http://www.steppenwolf.org/About-Us/history/productions/index.aspx?id=220">Steppenwolf in 1999</a>, at <a href="https://philadelphiatheatrecompany.org/history/">Philadelphia Theater Company in 2001</a>, and at <a href="https://www.repstl.org/archive/detail/this-is-our-youth">St. Louis Rep in 2005</a>; and there has been no shortage of small-theater regional productions over the years (Frisco in <a href="https://archives.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/this-is-our-youth/Content?oid=2144122">2002</a>, Chicago in 2005 and <a href="https://www.theatreinchicago.com/playdetail.php?playID=5166">2011</a>, Seattle in <a href="https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20050708&slug=youth08">2008</a>). But to date, to my knowledge <i>This Is Our Youth</i> has never been professionally staged in Los Angeles, even by a 99-seat theater, as even Tracy Letts' <i>Bug </i>and <i>Killer Joe </i>have been (<i>Youth </i>was recently audio-recorded in Santa Monica with <a href="https://latw.org/title/our-youth">the original cast by L.A. TheatreWorks</a>, which is how I eventually at last heard it). Its only commercial revivals thus far have been a <a href="https://www.thisistheatre.com/londonshows/thisisouryouth.html">starry West End run in 2002</a> and another similarly starry one <a href="https://thereelbits.com/2012/02/08/michael-cera-kieran-culkin-and-emily-barclay-bring-this-is-our-youth-to-sydney-opera-house/">early this year in Australia</a>. That’s right—the play purported to define a generation has played in freaking Sydney, Australia, with American film stars in it—but hasn't yet been revived in New York or even staged in L.A. What’s wrong with this picture?</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">I don’t have an answer; over the years I’ve chalked up the relative scarcity of <i>This Is Our Youth</i> to something perverse or retiring in Lonergan himself—an advanced case of congenital Gen-X diffidence. That’s almost certainly unfair; the vagaries of theater production, particularly newish-play revivals, are surely more punishing and capricious than I can imagine. So I send hopeful vibes in the direction of Second Stage, which has lately become a home for just this kind of recent-landmark revival (Howard Korder's <i>Boys' Life</i> in 2008, Paula Vogel's <i>How I Learned To Drive </i>last year, next season Jason Robert Brown's <i>The Last Five Years</i>), and toward the Signature Theatre, where Lonergan recently staged his latest lark, <i>Medieval Play</i>, which would make a promising site for a <i>Youth</i> revival, as it was last year for another landmark ’90s work, <i>Angels in America</i>.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">In fact, reading <i>This Is Our Youth </i>again recently, I was struck by its only similarity to <i>Angels</i>: They're both Clinton-era plays about the Reagan-Bush ’80s, and that quality of recent hindsight is a defining (you might uncharitably say limiting) element of both. Of course, that’s where any similarities with <i>Angels </i>end, and not just in terms of scale—<i>This Is Our Youth</i> is a three-character, single-set, essentially-real-time two-acter, while <i>Angels</i> is—well, <i>Angels</i>. Lonergan’s play is also the clear progenitor of a divergent strain in American playwriting; while Kushner's thematic and formal ambition could be seen as clearing the path for the likes of Sarah Ruhl, Rajiv Joseph and Katori Hall, Lonergan's fine-grained neo-naturalism has clear heirs in Annie Baker, Amy Herzog, and Stephen Belber.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">And if Kushner's prescient epic presaged both the right-wing retrenchment of the Bush II years and the velvet revolution in gay rights (and, it might even be argued, helped set the table for our culture's current Mormon moment), Lonergan's aimless-stoner portraiture seemingly had no such culture-wide reverberations. But it is no less a reflection of its ambivalent age; possibly moreso, because by keeping his scope narrow and his focus intense, Lonergan captures more of the texture of life as it was lived in the hangover-morning-in-America of the early '80s—1982, to be precise, the year Gay Mens’ Health Crisis was founded to address a troubling new “gay cancer” and Nancy Reagan started telling kids to “just say no” to drugs.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Indeed, it was a time when the Reagan “revolution” was making headlines but had barely begun to sink in. This accounts for some of <i>This Is Our Youth</i>'s patina of innocence; these young folks have barely an inkling what's ahead for them, both personally and culturally. But apart from the play's stray references to the nation’s new president, most of them hostile or incredulous, there’s writing on the wall of <i>This Is Our Youth </i>if you know where to look: For one thing, the Upper West Side where Dennis Ziegler and Warren Straub strut like slacker princes, toking and fretting in the limbo between high school and the next indeterminate step, had in the early ’80s only fairly recently been gentrified, in the first wave of what would become the Giuliani/Bloomberg turnaround—which would in turn become an emblem of the way ascendant conservative ideas about wealth, property, and class seemed to trump (yes, I use the term advisedly) old party lines.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">After all, Clinton Democrats—even the reluctant, <i>Nation</i>-reading lefties who thought he was a bit of redneck and would have preferred to vote for his wife—proved to be among the city’s most fervent gentrifiers, and many fit the profile of <i>This Is Our Youth</i>’s offstage parents. As Jessica Goldman, the brittle, argumentative 19-year-old who’s clearly into Dennis but settles, not entirely unhappily, for Warren, describes them, “kids from the Sixties who were so righteous about changing the face of civilization, and then the minute they got older they were all like, ‘Actually, you know what? Maybe I’ll just be a lawyer.’ ” The yuppie sellout was a popular trope at the time, and it had a lot of truth in it. But not only does Warren, with preternatural old-soul circumspection, seem skeptical that people change as much as Jessica imagines they do; Lonergan is also subtly sympathetic to those offstage parents, not least because he implicates us into feeling parentally protective toward the play’s confused teen trio.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">The play’s final big speech, for example, puts the struggles of Warren’s dad—a self-made lingerie manufacturer whose wealth hasn’t been enough to shield him from tragedy and loneliness, any more than the $15,000 in cash Warren has casually lifted from him could do—into sobering perspective. And a stage direction just after that speech, “Warren looks at [Dennis] as if from a very great distance,” offers a key to the play’s sneaky wisdom about the passage of time, about the ways nostalgia can take root in the present tense, a stubborn bloom in the sidewalk cracks of our lives. Ruffalo famously argued with Lonergan about casting him and Josh Hamilton, both of whom were pushing 30, in the roles of 19-year-old Warren and 21-year-old Dennis, pointing out—quite rightly, it turned out—that with the benefit of hindsight they could interpret post-adolescence better than actors who were actually going through it.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">That "great distance" stage direction is one clue why slightly older actors make such a good fit for the play, and why it's ultimately much more than a proto-Apatovian stoner sitcom. <i>This Is Our Youth </i>beautifully, I’d even say definitively, captures the terribly self-conscious purgatory between adolescence and adulthood, the point when young people start to wax preemptively wistful about their youth—both in recalling their already idealized past, and also, more poignantly, in speculating how they will recall the often ugly and seemingly pointless blur of their transitional present. Warren’s satchel full of vintage toys and records, ultimately sold off in a pinch, is only the most obvious loss-of-innocence symbol, and Dennis has a striking early speech in which he portrays himself as less a simple drug dealer than as the put-upon peddler of his peers’ future warm memories.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">But the awakening from childhood to adulthood, with its own bounty of terrors and disappointments, is also embedded in the play’s arc; by the end, high-strung alpha-male Dennis, shell-shocked by a close encounter with senseless death, has gone from treating his clumsy, wayward friend Warren as a punching bag to all but supplicating for a return to Warren's good graces. This, for Dennis, is growth, while for Warren, who has clearly attained some quiet glimmer of insight within the play's not-quite-24-hour time span, growth is marked by that sympathetic speech about his abusive dad and that distant, almost contented look with which he closes the play.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: arial;">As Dennis and Warren share a last joint before the final curtain, it serves as a rite to mark the passing of a worn-out childhood bond and the negotiation of different, necessarily more conditional terms of friendship. The world they face is the one we now know all too well, for better or worse. The rest is memory.</span></p></blockquote>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-21490248582479230952021-08-24T13:33:00.005-04:002021-08-24T13:33:59.845-04:00'Harmony': Pop Musik, 1935 Edition<p> <i style="font-family: arial; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1gpRRk6Q-4xdB7rtLt1nN5DFZWtm-mbfjo0mkB-lS_4GK2N6YRtguq_OG5F76qU7F3SCTzC0KvRsRXjbbDF19RM0ab8A0FzhKc07x2EXk6sP-95rRN-s1pvSkehmtTGJTeBzXdw/s1000/comedianharmonists.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="699" data-original-width="1000" height="280" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1gpRRk6Q-4xdB7rtLt1nN5DFZWtm-mbfjo0mkB-lS_4GK2N6YRtguq_OG5F76qU7F3SCTzC0KvRsRXjbbDF19RM0ab8A0FzhKc07x2EXk6sP-95rRN-s1pvSkehmtTGJTeBzXdw/w400-h280/comedianharmonists.jpg" width="400" /></a></i></p><span style="font-family: arial;"><i><br />In 2014, L.A.'s Center Theatre Group hosted a run of the <a href="https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-xpm-2014-mar-13-la-et-cm-harmony-review-story.html">Barry Manilow/Bruce Sussman musical </a></i><a href="https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-xpm-2014-mar-13-la-et-cm-harmony-review-story.html">Harmony</a><i>, a historical musical about the Comedian Harmonists, a real-life musical group from 1930s Germany who managed to entertain millions despite the encroaching Nazi shadow. With the recent announcement of the musical's New York debut, it seemed as good as any to reprint my feature on the musical, which CTG commissioned from me for the program.</i></span><p></p><h3 style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 17pt; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: arial;">Comedian Harmonists: Low Comedy in High Art</span></span></h3><p><b id="docs-internal-guid-04a84ab2-7fff-5422-e8d4-d9604aecf382"><span style="font-family: arial;">by Rob Weinert-Kendt</span></b></p><div style="line-height: 1.38; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><span style="font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: arial;">German popular music of the 1920s and '30s wasn't all marches and schottisches (a slow polka). There was also a good deal of American-influenced music on the airwaves and in the dancehalls—so much so, in fact, that the world's first courses in jazz theory and performance were taught not in New Orleans or Harlem but in Frankfurt, Germany. It was there, in 1928, at the venerable Hoch Conservatory that a young Hungarian composer, Matyas Seiber. began teaching a “Jazz-Klasse."
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American pop hadn't just come via records and sheet music either, but in the flesh: Josephine Baker had played Berlin in 1925, and Paul Whiteman made a splash there a year later. In turn, Germany spawned its own bandleaders, including Eric Borchard and Stefan Weintraub, leader of The Syncopators. Dance-band sounds and harmonies soon found their way into the music of modernist composers like Paul Hindemith and Kurt Weill, and by the end of the decade, records by Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington were German radio staples.
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American-style pop and jazz, not to mention modernist music, had social implications as well as entertainment value: They may not even have known it at the time. but its practitioners and advocates were on the front lines of a culture war that would have real casualties within a decade. On one side were those, like the Hoch Conservatory's director, Bernhard Sekles, who defended his school's popular music courses by saying, "An infusion of 'Negro' blood can do no harm." On the other were critics, either openly allied with or at least sympathetic to the Nazi party's racist theories, who saw jazz and pop as part of a "plague" of “Negro noise.”
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Of course, popular music was also suspect to these reactionary critics because so many of Germany's bandleaders, popular singers and nightclub owners happened to be Jewish. In the ensuing Nazi campaign against "decadent" art and artists, pop music was a particularly expedient scapegoat, since by silencing it—as the Nazis officially did in 1935, after a two-year campaign of pressure and propaganda—they could also effectively silence some of Germany's most popular Jewish public figures.
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Among these were members of the vocal sextet the Comedian Harmonists. The band was formed in 1927 by Harry Frommerman, an unemployed actor who'd heard some records by the American vocal quintet The Revelers and figured he could put together a German group along the same lines. Frommerman placed an ad in the </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Berlin Lokal-Anzeiger</span><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> and was soon joined by a former rabbi from Poland, Roman Cykowski; a Bulgarian singing waiter, Ari Leshnikoff; an operatic bass, Robert Biberti; a young medical student, Erich Collin; and a skilled pianist, Erwin Bootz. But this eclectic group did more than sing close-harmony versions of American jazz standards, German folk songs and novelty numbers. What put them over the top, says Bruce Sussman, is that the Harmonists also included deft musical and physical comedy in their act—hence the qualifier "Comedian."
</span><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">
Sussman, who wrote the book and lyrics for </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Harmony</span><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, a new musical about the Harmonists, with Barry Manilow writing the music, turned himself into an expert on the band after seeing Eberhard Fechner's 1977 documentary.
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"The piece de resistance of their act was the overture to </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Barber of Seville</span><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">," says Sussman, who like Manilow traveled to Germany to do research. "The lights were turned out, and you'd hear </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The Barber of Seville</span><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and it sounded like a chamber orchestra playing. The lights would slowly come up, and it was six guys replicating all those instruments."
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If that sounds a bit like the kind of concert-hall antics later practiced by the likes of Victor Borge and PDQ Bach, that's not far off, Sussman says. "These were guys who found low comedy in high art. Their virtuosity was extraordinary; it was also hilarious."
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For his part, Manilow makes a headier comparison.
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"They were the Beatles of Germany," says Manilow. "Every time I play Germany, I get into a limo and I say to the driver, 'Do you know Comedian Harmonists?' It doesn't matter whether the guy is young or old, they all know them. These men are still the Beatles of Germany."
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While in Berlin, Manilow scooped up not only all the Harmonists records he could find, "I went into a Tower Records store there, and there was an entire wall of their CDs." There was also a collection of "Shlagerparades" ("hit parade" collections) from each year of the 1920s and '30s.
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“That was where I began—I studied the pop music of Germany during the time they were huge,” says Manilow. How was it? "It was fantastic. Song after song after song was interesting and emotional and filled with interesting orchestrations. And the singers—they had their hearts on their sleeves, or they were funny."
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Not all of it was such unalloyed fun. Amid the jazz and semi-classical and novelty tunes were plenty of marches, including a Bolshevik ditty that inspired an idealistic song in </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Harmony</span><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. Less inspirational but no less memorable: “I actually found a Nazi marching band song," says Manilow. "It was creepy to listen to, but I can tell you, it was brilliant. That's what's so disgusting: They were brilliant and they were monsters at the same time."
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Though </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-style: italic; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Harmony </span><span style="font-family: arial; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">is decidedly not a Holocaust musical—its narrative ends in 1935—its dramatic grist is indeed the Nazi-led war against multicultural modernity. The pop music ban of 1935 didn't just effectively disband the Harmonists; a reconstituted, Gentile-only version of the group, with the unwieldy, state-mandated name Meistersextett, found nearly their entire old repertoire off-limits.
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"When the new group tried to do their show and follow guidelines that said they couldn't do songs composed by Jews, with lyrics by Jews, arranged by Jews, or published by Jews," says Manilow, "the only song they had left was 'I Have a Cactus on My Windowsill.'"
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Indeed, for all their occasionally pointed comedy, the Harmonists were popular entertainers, not protest singers. But their very existence was enough to offend the Third Reich.
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Says Sussman, "This group represented the very diversity that the German nation at this point was saying was toxic. Not only were there Jews and Gentiles in the group; there was a Bulgarian, an Italian, a Pole, they were from all strata of class. The definition of harmony, the non-musical definition, from the Greek, is diverse elements brought together in a unified synthesis. They were the embodiment of that."
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When the Nazis later shut down the pop music courses at Frankfurt's Hoch Conservatory in 1933, they didn't just end a brave effort to keep German musicians’ chops current with the sounds of the day. They also nipped in the bud Seiber's ambitious plans for the school's next course of study: vocal jazz. The Comedian Harmonists could have led a master class.</span></div>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-35410153092496484432021-06-15T11:18:00.002-04:002021-06-15T22:04:56.539-04:00From the Review Files: Laurents Gets His Revenge on 'West Side Story'<div><span style="font-family: arial;"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgbC1Ws4j5qlwf5lVFFi4BSOV_tHviqakN0hgNfybH7hiSnVPfsyK0nedlYwlpNc-55fQebVf5GyBcpWS2_fnjdHzZVPT9lwsWxAn7H7_hJT9r3ewKOYV3pekCGF2QVuEIbcAgT/s1470/wss.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="985" data-original-width="1470" height="268" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgbC1Ws4j5qlwf5lVFFi4BSOV_tHviqakN0hgNfybH7hiSnVPfsyK0nedlYwlpNc-55fQebVf5GyBcpWS2_fnjdHzZVPT9lwsWxAn7H7_hJT9r3ewKOYV3pekCGF2QVuEIbcAgT/w400-h268/wss.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><i>Karen Olivo and cast of the 2009 revival. (Photo by Joan Marcus)</i></span></td></tr></tbody></table><br />Is <i>West Side Story </i>really all that? I've always been much more smitten with the score than with any other aspect of the show (let alone the overrated film, sorry not sorry). Last year I had occasion to review Ivo van Hove's controversial new staging <a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2020/02/21/review-broadways-new-west-side-story-war-itself">for <i>America </i>magazine</a>, but I still recall the show's previous Broadway revival, a very mixed affair which I reviewed for <i>The Sondheim Review </i>in 2009. I excerpted the review in <a href="https://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2009/08/historia-de-lado-oeste.html">a previous post</a>; below is the review in its entirety. For the record, the show ran <a href="https://www.ibdb.com/broadway-production/west-side-story-481437">from March 2009 to January 2011</a>.<br /><br /></span></div><blockquote><div><span style="font-family: arial;">The librettist’s job may be the most thankless in musical theater: On hand to supply the crucial architecture of story and to spackle the edifice with patches of dialogue, they are otherwise forced to stand aside as the structure they’ve built gets filled in with the songs and dances that give the musical theater its raison d’etre. Adding insult to injury, reviews tend to notice the libretto only when it is found wanting, while credit for a show’s success usually goes to the choreographer/director, the composer, or the star.</span></div><span style="font-family: arial;"><br />
If ever a libretto stood in shadow, it was Arthur Laurents’ stark gang-war update of <i>Romeo and Juliet</i> for the century-splitting 1957 musical <i>West Side Story.</i> The idea, after all, had originated with Jerome Robbins, and arguably reached its true fruition in Leonard Bernstein’s vibrant, sense-rattling score—not only its series of
deathless songs, with lyrics by a young, crafty Stephen Sondheim, but the sinuous, brawling dance variations with which Robbins definitively dramatized the story’s sex and violence.<br /><br />Laurents is now having a revenge of sorts, and it is indeed a dish served cold. The new <i>West Side Story</i> he’s directed on Broadway whirs and struts, and occasionally retains its power to startle. The dances, restaged vigorously by Joey McKneely and executed with style and sweat to spare by a tireless company, are nearly worth the price of admission; they remain the show’s enduring treasure, and make us long for a string of dance shows worthy of the town’s best hoofers. But unlike last year’s Broadway revival of <i>Gypsy</i>, in which Laurents’ salutary focus on the book only burnished its glow of perfection, this new <i>West Side Story</i> suffers noticeably from a relentless foregrounding of the show’s weakest link. There’s a good reason this book stayed in the shadows, after all.<br /><br />
Sondheim’s famous discomfort with his sophisticated lyrics for “I Feel Pretty”—a problem addressed if not solved in the new production by Lin-Manuel Miranda’s deft Spanish
translation—cuts to the heart of <i>West Side Story</i>’s story problems. Would Maria, an “uneducated Puerto Rican girl,” really sing such tricky internal rhymes in English, Sondheim memorably posited? “She would not have been out of place in Noël Coward’s living room,” he quipped. Fair enough, but once you pick at that loose
thread, the whole cloth starts to unravel: What gritty lower-class teen, Puerto Rican or otherwise, would sing a note or dance a step of <i>West Side Story</i>?<br /><br />Once Laurents goes there—makes concessions to “realism” by having the Sharks speak and sing partly in Spanish, by making the Jets superficially dirtier and shaggier than before (they don’t even wash up for the dance), and by adding an extra jolt or two of violence—we have no choice but to go there with him. And that’s when we start to wonder: Why do the Sharks get idiomatic Español while the Jets remain saddled with “frabbajabba” and “spit hits the fan”? Why this slab of Spanish in one scene, and that swathe of English in another? For a form as marvelously artificial as musical theater, it’s death for an audience to start to think this way.<br /><br />In the world of opera or ballet—forms with which <i>West Side Story</i> has marked affinities, and in which it could stand with some of the greats—we might not mind the thin characterizations, the
precipitous emotional leaps, even the half-baked social criticism. By this measure, Laurents’ book is no worse than, say, the libretto of <i>La boheme</i>. But if Laurents really wants us to fix our attention on his script—“trip to the moon,” “loving is enough,” and all—then he can’t blame us for noticing that what may have shocked audiences in 1957 seems quaint now, and that in grafting Shakespeare’s plot to a mid-century urban setting he replaced the Bard’s language with sub-Odetsian hokum and added little in the bargain.<br /><br />We should be able to get past this, of course, and maybe a visionary director without such a clear axe to grind—Bartlett Sher, while we’re wishing—could have taken us there. Indeed, for whole scenes at a time, we can see past Laurents’ buttonholing to the better production that might be built around Karen Olivo’s long-limbed, tempestuous Anita, or Curtis Holbrook’s volatile skinhead Action, or even Josefina Scaglione’s doll-pretty Maria, though she’s under-directed here and hopelessly dampened by Matt Cavenaugh’s arch, milquetoast Tony. Indeed, much of the dance at the gym and “Cool,” and all of Olivo’s “America,” could be lifted whole into that dream <i>West Side Story</i>.<br /><br />So might a fair amount of Miranda’s Spanish dialogue and, in particular, his lyrics. Though they stick out somewhat sorely in Laurents’ conception, “Siento Hermosa” (“I Feel Pretty”) and “Hombre Asi” (“A Boy Like That”) deserve a long life beyond this production. So, most definitely, does <i>West Side Story</i>.</span></blockquote><span style="font-family: arial;"></span>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-66749293332382716352021-04-01T21:08:00.003-04:002021-04-02T10:49:36.989-04:00The Passion of La FalconettiFor a time around the turn of the aughts, I and the crew at <i>Back Stage West</i> did an annual "Actors We Love" issue. Over the years the folks I wrote about included <a href="https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/alyson-hannigan-discomfort-zone-37366/">Alyson Hannigan</a>, <a href="https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/showing-character-part-ii-23798/">Bob Balaban</a>, Ernst Lubitsch's informal repertory ensemble, the entire company of <a href="https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/mean-41890/">Theatre of Note</a>—and Falconetti, the star of one of the great films of all time. As I'm about to be a guest on Alissa Wilkinson and Sam Thielman's <a href="https://yammpod.substack.com/">great podcast Young Adult Movie Ministry</a> to talk about this film, I've revisited my piece on this indelible performance, and share it here with you.<br /><br /><div style="text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjfaKvDwyd_irjuDCNhSt3ZAH5jWj4eqRudzzk2dGjMhmOEczw6i_9A25YniskwspQSqXnACwUZjQ5zZOvox7jcp_wt1DgeCttBGEZSwHDdAo6Ux1XZdzerpuAIuar6PS5__mfW/s400/291335538_4a827e3ccb_o.jpeg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="300" data-original-width="400" height="300" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjfaKvDwyd_irjuDCNhSt3ZAH5jWj4eqRudzzk2dGjMhmOEczw6i_9A25YniskwspQSqXnACwUZjQ5zZOvox7jcp_wt1DgeCttBGEZSwHDdAo6Ux1XZdzerpuAIuar6PS5__mfW/w400-h300/291335538_4a827e3ccb_o.jpeg" width="400" /></a></div><br /><b><br /></b></div><div style="text-align: center;"><b>Actors We Love: Maria Falconetti</b></div>
<h2 style="text-align: center;"><b>
Mysterious Ways</b></h2><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div>
<i><div style="text-align: center;"><i>Back Stage West</i>, June 5, 2003</div></i><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div>
A cloud of mystery shrouds the actress known to her colleagues simply as "La Falconetti"—even her name, it seems, was open to debate (recorded as Renee at birth, listed in later credits as Maria). Born in Corsica and dead at 54 in Buenos Aires—unofficial capital of mysterious expatriates—she was for a time a celebrated actress/producer of light comedies on the Paris stage. And yet her only film performance, in Carl Theodor Dreyer's anguished 1927 masterpiece <i>The Passion of Joan of Arc</i>, is a raw, riveting portrait of the martyr's spiritual transfiguration. Who was this woman, and where did this otherworldly performance—probably the greatest ever recorded on film—come from?<br /><br />
Accounts of the film's making reveal that Dreyer and Falconetti didn't know where it came from—and that because they knew they didn't know, they cradled this enigma as, in Dreyer's words, "a secret that...should be experienced and not explained." It is known that Dreyer shot the film in sequence, but there are also disturbing reports from the set that he made Falconetti kneel on stones to get her to cry, and he relentlessly repeated takes to get her to go further and further emotionally, to break her, to mold her. This apparent aesthetic sadism may explain a few of Falconetti's more pained expressions, and one should never underestimate the ways a grueling shoot can seep into the emotional color of a sensitive performance. But there's no way to explain the overwhelming power or Falconetti's Joan, undimmed over the decades, except as inspiration of singular, even divine nature.<br /><br />
Based on the transcripts of Joan's trial before a special assembly of the Inquisition, Dreyer's film begins in a courtroom and ends at the stake, spending most of the interim in Joan's cell. There are no establishing shots to speak of and only a fleeting few in which we see Falconetti's whole body; she's disconcertingly small and stiff in these moments. Whole books have been written about the ways Dreyer stretched and subverted the film medium with disorienting angles, multi-valenced sightlines, and discontinuous editing—there are almost no cuts on an action, and only a handful that carry a figure from one shot to the next. And there has been a full accounting of the way Dreyer's severe minimalist aesthetic attains its curious timelessness; Jean Cocteau famously said the film was like "an historical document from an era in which the cinema did not exist."<br /><br />
But there can be no accounting of Falconetti's performance, which transpires almost entirely on the landscape of her dark, unmade-up face, except to record moments: the impossibly wide in eyes of a near-fanatic hearing divine voices, receding to the half-lidded despair of a prophet who understands she'll be misunderstood; the childlike eagerness to trust the hypocrites who dangle Holy Communion before her as a bribe, turning to wracked, tearless sobs of bitter defeat when she realizes the betrayal; the beatific, triumphal glow as she finally overcomes her accusers with an innocence so boundless they eventually crumble in awe. All of these register so strongly, and in such pore-gazing close-up, as to be almost unbearably intimate and moving. Indeed, after a while, though it's a silent film, we can <i>hear </i>Joan's breathless "oui."<br /><br />
If the ephemeral Falconetti left few reliable records of her life, in Passion she left something more: the miraculous leap of the spirit from the body into the camera's watchful, omniscient eye.<br /><div style="text-align: right;">—<i>Rob Kendt</i></div>Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-75593878832063557152020-07-08T00:53:00.004-04:002020-07-08T00:53:35.707-04:00The Moment 'Hamilton' Slips Off Track<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: x-small;"><i>Cross-posted from <a href="https://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-moment-hamilton-slips-off-track.html">Train My Ear</a>.</i></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">For a blessed few years I was among the<i> New York Times</i>'s freelance theater correspondents most likely to be assigned features about new rock or pop musicals. Perhaps this <a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/2013/04/01/its-better-with-a-band-musical-theatres-next-tune/">cover story on "band musicals"</a> for <i>American Theatre </i>was my calling card; in any case I feel fortunate to have written for the paper of record about <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/theater/dave-malloy-on-his-roles-in-natasha-pierre-at-kazino.html">Dave Malloy</a>, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/22/theater/whats-new-for-stew-a-blues-fable-told-in-story-and-song.html">Stew</a>, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/theater/the-shaggs-stage-musical-is-about-to-return.html">the Shaggs</a>, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/theater/the-fortress-of-solitude-arrives-as-a-musical.html">Michael Friedman</a>, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/theater/sting-and-jimmy-nail-on-the-musical-the-last-ship.html">Sting</a>, and more recently, Conor McPherson's <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/theater/conor-mcpherson-bob-dylan-girl-from-the-north-country.html">Bob Dylan musical</a>.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">That must also be the reason I got the call, in early 2015, to write <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/theater/lin-manuel-miranda-and-others-from-hamilton-talk-history.html">a preview feature</a> on a new hip-hop musical at the Public Theater by the guy who'd given the world <i>In the Heights</i>, and that's how I ended up at maybe the show's third preview there. I'd like to say I knew from the start that <i>Hamilton </i>would hit the world like a hurricane; I knew that it <a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/rags-revolutionary">bowled me over</a> with its ambition, heart, and <a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2015/02/hamilton-s-new-york-moment.html">sheer lyrical brilliance</a>, but I too <a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2015/07/up-with-hamilton.html">joined in debates</a> about whether it would "play" for a wider audience on Broadway. At the time I compared the buzz created by Lin-Manuel Miranda's intricate, word-drunk lyrics to <a href="https://twitter.com/RobKendt/status/558115602750263297">that of <i>Sweeney Todd</i></a>; and I think, as is too often the case Sondheim, the lyrical onslaught can lead some to overlook or take for granted the sophistication and tunefulness of the score that supports them. <i>Hamilton</i> contains multitudes: both dense, agile raps and big-tuned pop songs, as well as a battery of recitative, all woven together with consummate compositional artistry. And I think it's no coincidence that the show's best songs, "Satisfied" and "Wait for It," employ a full arsenal of both hip-hop flow and rich pop melody.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">All that said, I confess that I haven't gone deep on the score or replayed it frequently since my first few hearings of it onstage. For one thing, as with most Broadway cast albums, it's too rich a meal to snack on, and it's not actually very enjoyable to listen to without giving it my full and sustained attention, something that is hard for me to come by without planning. <i>Hamilton</i> also happens to be one of those pop culture staples, like <i>Seinfeld </i>or the Beatles, that you almost don't need to immerse yourself in deeply to feel soaked in; it's somehow everywhere all the time, as if it were always there.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Still, my tween son's fervent embrace, and incessant replaying, of the cast album in recent years has imprinted much of it on me afresh. And there's one part of it that has always brought me up short in the best way. It's early in the show, in the midst of the bravura, dick-swinging expository song "My Shot," when Hamilton is holding forth over beers with a new crew of New York tavern buddies—and he very suddenly pauses (at 2:40 in the clip above). The music drops out to a snap click, and brash young Alexander has one of his rare moments of dubious introspection. It is worded as if addressed to his comrades, but it seems clearly to be an internal monologue:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Oh, am I talkin' too loud?</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Sometimes I get over-excited, shoot off at the mouth</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I never had a group of friends before</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I promise that I'll make y'all proud</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">The whole section feels out of time, despite the click, like the downbeats are suddenly missing, with the song only snapping back into focus with Laurens's enthusiastic reply: "Let's get this guy in front of a crowd!"</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">There are plenty of other instances in this long, through-composed score in which Miranda steps out of or plays with the rigid clockwork of the 4/4 beat, and layers in complex phrasing and ambitious meters. But this section has always sounded almost free-tempo, or otherwise trickily metered. Counting it out, though, I can see that it's just four standard bars, and I've learned to hear the crucial 1 and 3 beats in each measure. But look at how oddly they're distributed:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">(<b>beat</b>, two) Oh, am I <b>talk</b>in' too loud?</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Sometimes I <b>get </b>over-excited, shoot <b>off </b>at the mouth</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I never <b>had </b>a group of friends before, I <b>prom</b>ise that I'll make y'all</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>Proud...</b>Let's get this guy in <b>front </b>of a crowd</span></blockquote>
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The phrase that feels especially unmoored, and where until I took the trouble of counting I would always lose the meter, is—not coincidentally—perhaps the show's most nakedly vulnerable, certainly up to this point: <i>"I never had a group of friends before."</i> The plaintiveness and plainness of that statement, spoken more than rapped, stands out so sorely in the midst of the song's crackling bravado and rat-a-tat rhythms that Laurens's confidence in Hamilton's eloquence almost registers as a punchline. You want to put <i>this</i> sad, needy guy in front of a <i>crowd</i>?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">But this private moment of doubt, as definitive <i>Hamilton </i>deconstructer Howard Ho points out <a href="https://youtu.be/ro8uhPr2PSM">in a new video</a>, is linked throughout the show to an earlier trauma—the devastation that rained on St. Croix and put young Alexander on intimate terms with death, so much so that "it's like a memory" to him. This is the eye of the hurricane he's never really left behind, and through which he fundamentally sees the world. More than all the Revolutionary history lessons and poptimism of the <i>Hamilton</i> phenomenon, it is the character Hamilton's intense, brutally foreshortened view of life, scarcity, and striving that gives the show its unique gravity.</span></div>
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Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-3784300447860954662020-06-04T22:04:00.001-04:002020-06-04T22:05:11.930-04:00'A Good Stomping Band'<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLPg1pVeBRa7aybWfZq-_EV5xWFM8Q4otIF2TMa9Yy_Xd3eOCdqekOV52NeFQGk7d_SLX_J0QfcMg6ztkBQt012XO0efoKsHiT1ACSycjRTikgyDbNAHcbdAf_ThMdsuaWG2_2Ng/s1600/Backbeat_Production_Photo_3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="519" data-original-width="780" height="265" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLPg1pVeBRa7aybWfZq-_EV5xWFM8Q4otIF2TMa9Yy_Xd3eOCdqekOV52NeFQGk7d_SLX_J0QfcMg6ztkBQt012XO0efoKsHiT1ACSycjRTikgyDbNAHcbdAf_ThMdsuaWG2_2Ng/s400/Backbeat_Production_Photo_3.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">The cast of <i>Backbeat</i>. (Photo by Craig Schwartz)</td></tr>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: x-small;"><i>Cross-posted on <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2020/06/a-good-stomping-band.html">Train My Ear</a>.</i></span><br />
<i style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Some years ago I was hired to write the program notes for the Center Theatre Group's production of </i><a href="https://www.centertheatregroup.org/tickets/ahmanson-theatre/2012-13/backbeat/" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Backbeat</a><i style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">, a stage musical Iain Softley adapted from his pretty-good Beatles biopic. I never got a chance to see the show, as it didn't make it beyond its L.A. run in early 2013. But it did give me the excuse to geek out about the Fab Four's early days, and to re-litigate a debate that raged through my high school years: Were the Beatles really rock 'n' roll? Here's the full text of it.</i><br />
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">For a certain generation or two of music fans, it is the fundamental disagreement, the Coke-or-Pepsi, Yankees-or-Mets, blond-or-brunette divide of rock ’n’ roll: Beatles or Stones? Though the lads from Liverpool clearly dominate in terms of sales figures and cross-generational appeal, the rude boys from Dartford inevitably have the edge in any argument where the standard is rock credibility. The Rolling Stones, the reasoning goes, were scruffy white bluesmen who sang frankly about sex and violence, and were more likely to spend offstage hours shagging and shooting up than showering—in other words, the rock ethos personified—while the Beatles, with their sunny major-key harmonies and singalong choruses, were essentially English music-hall tunesmiths with pretensions to seriousness. The Stones sang “Let’s Spend the Night Together,” the Beatles “I Wanna Hold Your Hand.”</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">If this back-and-forth continues, as it tends to, it will be another point against the Beatles that they retreated early, like hothouse flowers, from the pressures of live performing and became hermetic pop artistes with the studio as their canvas, while the Stones have ever and always been indefatigable strut-and-sweat showmen, a working band unafraid to face down any crowd, and indeed are still rolling well into retirement age.</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">There is, of course, no winning such an argument, which is why it blissfully rages on. Still, the Beatles partisan looking to shore up the band's rock credentials might cite the rowdy, punishing Hamburg apprenticeship that is the chief backdrop of the new stage musical <i>Backbeat</i>, based on the 1994 film of the same title. The long hours they logged on the stages of seedy clubs in that rough-and-tumble city's Reeperbahn was the Beatles' conservatory, trade school, and frat house—the crucible that transformed them from half-cocked dabblers to what one observer called "a good stomping band."</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">It was no ordinary touring gig the Beatles undertook to Hamburg, first in 1960, then four more times through 1962. These were days when rock bands were still something of a novelty, and club owners and booking agents were accordingly trying novel approaches in programming them. Was this loud new music meant for giddy underage teenyboppers, or for heavy-drinking adult crowds who'd as soon throw chairs as sit on them? Was it music to dance to, or music to watch strippers dance to? Bruno Koschmider, a former fairground showman and WWII veteran, took a maximalist approach when booking music at his Reeperbahn nightclubs, most of them former strip clubs frequented by prostitutes and their johns: require bands to play relentlessly all night, for as long as six to eight hours, in return for as much beer as they could down and some pocket change.</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">The Beatles, eager teens that they were, were up for the endurance challenge (and later, when energy flagged, got through it with the help of pep pills called Preludin). John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, and Stu Sutcliffe formed the core quartet; they hastily recruited a drummer, Pete Best, and headed in a van to Germany posing as vacationing students, since they didn't have the requisite work permits (most of the group had only just acquired passports, this being their first trip abroad). There they encountered a port city quite a bit larger, rougher, and more decadent than the port city of Liverpool they knew. Given filthy lodgings behind the screen of a movie theater called Bambi Kino, the Beatles settled in for a 14-week initiation that would include a basic rock 'n' roll curriculum of sex, booze, brawling, destruction of property, and, most importantly, the fine art of entertaining indifferent, even hostile foreigners.</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">The legendary stage marathons at Koschmider's clubs—and later, the stage of a rival club owner, in a breach of contract that led an angry Koschmider to get them deported—were so integral to forming the band that would later conquer the world that they served as a case study in Malcolm Gladwell's 2008 book <i>Outliers</i>. Gladwell counted their roughly 1,200 working nights in Germany as an example of his "10,000-hour rule"—the notion that a certain intensive amount of time spent practicing and preparing is as crucial to "genius" as talent. Gladwell quotes John Lennon:</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">We got better and got more confidence. We couldn’t help it with all the experience playing all night long. It was handy them being foreign. We had to try even harder, put our heart and soul into it, to get ourselves over.</span></blockquote>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">In Liverpool, we'd only ever done one-hour sessions, and we just used to do our best numbers, the same ones, at every one. In Hamburg, we had to play for eight hours, so we really had to find a new way of playing.</span></blockquote>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Indeed, the Beatles' strongest claim to rock 'n' roll cred is not that they put in the hours and became a cracking live band but that they learned to <i>work it</i>. Faced with an unresponsive audience, and famously admonished by Koschmider to "mak show," Lennon—soon followed by McCartney and his bandmates—started to act like a wild man onstage. As Beatles biographer Philip Norman put it in <i>Shout!</i>, Lennon "began to go berserk onstage, prancing and groveling in imitation of any rock 'n' roller or movie monster his dazzled mind could summon up."</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Those long hours required not just new ways of playing but a whole new repertoire: to their usual trove of Chuck Berry and Gene Vincent covers, the Beatles added more American rhythm and blues, along with novelty songs like "Peppermint Twist," even a bit of jazz. One observer recalls the Beatles gamely trying to play through a standard off sheet music—something a feat, given that they didn't read music. These cover tunes, which fill out the playlist of <i>Backbeat </i>(including "Long Tall Sally," "Twist and Shout," "Money," "Rock & Roll Music," "Kansas City"), were among the raw musical material that John and Paul (and later, George) would mine for their original songs. And much as the vast number of hours they spent playing in Hamburg gave them that much more practice as musicians, the breadth of material they had to learn, absorb, and interpret in those years served as a crash course in rock music theory, composition, and arrangement.</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">The Hamburg days also famously marked the birth of another Beatles signature: their style. Though Stu Sutcliffe's girlfriend, the artist Astrid Kirchherr, denies any special credit, the haircuts she gave the lads, which her set called "exi" (for "existentialist"), became the template for the Beatles' moptops. Though by the time we Americans met them, they were dressed in identical Edwardian, collarless suits, the Beatles who first returned from Germany favored leather jackets and cowboy boots. It was a sleek teen-rebel look that, combined with their newfound musical confidence and raucous stage show, immediately bowled over English crowds. Most Beatles historians, in fact, mark the beginning of Beatlemania to their first Liverpool show after Hamburg, in December 1960, when, as biographer Bob Spitz put it, they "squeezed every nerve of the local rock 'n' roll scene" by throwing up a "wall of grinding sound and [a] veil of black leather."</span></div>
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<span class="s1" style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Does this settle the case for the Beatles as authentic rockers? Maybe not. But if their experience seems typical now, it is partly because the Beatles set the type: a troupe of promisingly creative teens who don't quite finish art school or learn a trade but instead run off and join the rock circus. Besides, what other art school dropout became a rock god? Why, bluesman Keith Richards.</span></div>
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Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-67440437525722481492020-05-28T18:43:00.002-04:002020-05-28T18:43:22.568-04:00Best Showtunes Evah<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><i><span style="font-size: x-small;">Cross-posted from <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2020/05/best-showtunes-evah.html">Train My Ear</a></span>.</i></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Some years ago Adam Feldman at <i>Time Out New York </i>asked me to contribute some entries for a grand list of <a href="https://www.timeout.com/newyork/theater/best-broadway-songs-of-all-time">"Best Broadway Songs of All Time."</a> I had nothing to do with the voting or the ranking (the Top 3, if you want to cut to the chase, were "Rose's Turn," "O'l Man River," and "Finishing the Hat"), but I was offered a choice from among the chosen 50 songs of which I wanted to write about, and was happy to land some of my favorites (lots of Rodgers, and both Tesoris!). The <a href="https://www.timeout.com/newyork/theater/best-broadway-songs-of-all-time">whole thing is worth a read</a>, featuring pieces by Feldman, David Cote, Raven Snook, and James Gavin. Here are my contributions, with the number in the list they held.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>5. </b>“Some Enchanted Evening” from <i>South Pacific</i> (1949)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Good music is onomatopoeia in reverse--sound formed from, and hence transmitting, meaning. That’s certainly the case with this swooning mini-aria, which wraps a pro-forma romantic message in a creamy musical envelope; even without Hammerstein’s lyrics, typically warbled by an operatic baritone with a heavy European accent, Rodgers’s tune by itself conjures ephemeral intoxication. And lest this song’s stand-alone hit status and oddly speculative second-person voice (“You may see a stranger”) make us forget: This love bomb drops in <i>South Pacific</i>’s first scene, where it functions as a marriage proposal. Who says no to that?</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>14. </b>“You’ll Never Walk Alone” from <i>Carousel</i> (1945)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">The best of Rodgers and Hammerstein’s secular hymns had a dual purpose in its original setting: as a bit of grief counseling for newly widowed Julie Jordan after her husband’s suicide, and as a climactic high school graduation anthem for their daughter. To meet both demands, Hammerstein contributed almost entirely monosyllabic lyrics and Rodgers banked his fire, keeping things folk-simple till the arrival of the title phrase, for which he unleashed a cloud-bursting chord per syllable. The song’s repurposing has continued: It’s the official club anthem of Liverpool’s soccer team.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>18. </b>“Aquarius” from <i>Hair</i> (1968)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">For a musical purportedly running on hippie flower power and gloopy starshine, it’s striking that <i>Hair</i>'s bookends are a pair of bad-ass minor-key blues chorales: this funky, driving opener and the rafter-shaking closer “Let the Sun Shine In.” Wafting in like stage fog over a brooding organ and a siren-like wail of guitar feedback, “Aquarius” may proffer dubious astrology and peacenik platitudes, courtesy lyricists James Rado and Gerome Ragni, but composer Galt MacDermot’s churning, darkly tuneful music both grounds and elevates it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>12.</b> “If I Were a Rich Man” from <i>Fiddler on the Roof</i> (1964)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Some theatre songs are whole plays in miniature; that this is one of them maybe shouldn’t be surprising, as it’s based on one of the Sholem Aleichem folk tales not used for the show’s main plot. As such it’s less an “I want” song than an “I am” song--a wistful introduction not to the things that drive the poor milkman Tevye but to how he sees himself. Amid the affectionate domestic humor of Sheldon Harnick’s lyrics is an insight the original Tevye, Zero Mostel, insisted the writers keep: This is a man whose ultimate idea of luxury is more time to pray and read the Torah.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>23. </b>“Lot’s Wife” from <i>Caroline, or Change</i> (2004)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">This stunning 11 o’clock number would be overwhelming if it all weren’t so clearly and forcefully laid out by playwright/lyricist Tony Kushner and composer Jeanine Tesori. As Caroline, an embittered black maid who has squabbled over pocket change with the young son of the Jewish family she serves, wrenchingly weighs her complicity in her own misery, she tears through shifting meters and styles, presses words through multiple meanings (“Pocket change change me,” a climactic cry of “Flat!” that piles spiritual and musical connotations onto her hot iron), and reaches a kind of truce with her own rage.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>29.</b> “Ring of Keys” from <i>Fun Home</i> (2015)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">A great theatre song goes places, but few travel as unexpectedly far and deep as this ebullient epiphany from the musical of Alison Bechdel’s memoir. The first trip is back in time, as 43-year-old Alison recalls her 10-year-old self admiring a butch lesbian she glimpsed at a diner; but the song’s real journey is the steep inward dive inspired by that shock of recognition. Lisa Kron’s lyric judiciously balances childlike precocity with stereotype-free hindsight, as Jeanine Tesori’s music spins subtly swelling cartwheels underneath, but the genius move is to leave blank space for young Alison to literally think out loud: “I feel…” and “I want...to....” and “I...um…” Into these spaces a whole heart, and a lifetime, can rush.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>39. </b>“Something Wonderful” from <i>The King and I</i> (1951)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Open-hearted, ploddingly earnest Oscar Hammerstein II could be underrated in the indirection department. After all, he gave this strange, and strangely moving, pep-talk anthem to a supporting character, Lady Thiang, at a pivotal point in the impasse between the show’s quasi-romantic leads. As the King’s elder wife lauds, with a mix of damning faint praise and sincere special pleading, her monarch’s fickle, flickering greatness, she somehow makes Anna--and us--feel it. It doesn’t hurt that Richard Rodgers rose majestically to the occasion, crafting a monumental, angular musical portrait of the song’s offstage subject.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>44.</b> “People Will Say We’re in Love” from <i>Oklahoma!</i> (1943)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">The musical’s version of the screwball comedy trope of the Lovers Who Can’t See They’re in Love, the “Of course I’m not in love with you (yet)” song has many fine exemplars (<i>Carousel</i>’s “If I Loved You,” <i>Brigadoon</i>’s “Almost Like Being in Love,” <i>Guys and Dolls</i>’s “I’ll Know”) but few as witty, playfully reciprocal, and, yes, sexy, as this bit of romantic gamesmanship, which features one of Richard Rodgers’s most felicitously constructed and artfully ornamented tunes (listen for the sly inversion of notes on “Don’t throw” and “Don’t start”).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>46.</b> “Anything Goes” from <i>Anything Goes</i> (1934)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Cole Porter wrote more than his share of durable melodies, but arguably his true metier was this kind of brittle, urbane word jazz, a kind of proto-hip-hop in which rhythmic flow and rhyming invention were everything. Though his original lyrics, full of wicked references to scandals and contretemps of his day, have often been censored or substituted with less topical variants, a listen to his original demo reveals that it isn’t arrangers or interpreters who’ve made Porter’s standards rock: The high-wire syncopations, feints, and sheer brass are all built into the original model.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b>49.</b> “Wouldn’t It Be Loverly” from <i>My Fair Lady </i>(1956)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">The first act of Shaw’s <i>Pygmalion </i>ends with Cockney flower seller Eliza Doolittle indulging in the luxury of a cab ride home to her Drury Lane digs. <i>My Fair Lady</i>’s first scene ends similarly, but not before she imagines--in this jaunty, syncopated minuet, one of many seemingly effortless, ageless gems in Lerner and Loewe’s score--earthly comforts so modest (heat, chocolate, a chair) that the song would be heartbreaking if it weren’t for its warm grin. It’s the “I want” song of someone with little reason to believe she’ll attain it, and it’s all the sweeter for it.</span>
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Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-38679681564298863692020-05-21T08:28:00.002-04:002020-11-03T22:06:33.444-05:00Sondheim vs. Weill's "Fruity" Sixths<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: x-small;"><i>Cross-posted from <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2020/05/sondheim-vs-weill-aka-fruity-sixths.html">Train My Ear</a>.</i></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">If you forced me to make a list of favorite composers, <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2013/01/whisky-zu-warm.html">Kurt Weill</a> would be at the top, <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2013/01/modere-tres-franc.html">Maurice Ravel</a> would be second, and, though I'm not exactly sure about the order after that, <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-heart-knows-words-disguise.html">Stephen Sondheim</a> would definitely be in the Top 5 (don't ask me to name the others in the pantheon, I don't want to get distracted here). The affinities here are not incidental, I don't think: These are three composers who </span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">craft music of the highest sophistication in popular forms, and whose harmonic language, to varying degrees, works</span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"> the outer edges of Western tonal music, flirting with and sometimes bedding down eagerly with dissonance. All are first-rate tunesmiths not content with mere tunes, whose signature chords are thicker than simple triads.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Those signature chords make all the difference, though: Weill, as has been widely noted (including <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2009/09/pleading-sixth.html">by me</a>), is known for his use of major sixths (think of the third and fourth note, under "shark bites." in "Mack the Knife"; it's a chord that has a ghost of its own relative minor key in it, and as such naturally feels haunted, irresolute). Ravel is king of the ninth—major, flat, all kinds (as Herbie Hancock demonstrates <a href="https://www.masterclass.com/classes/herbie-hancock-teaches-jazz/chapters/ravels-creative-harmonies#transcript">here</a>), an alternately splashy and expansive or curdled and cramped chord sound.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Meanwhile Sondheim, as Steve Swayne details in his essential book <i><a href="https://www.press.umich.edu/99247/how_sondheim_found_his_sound">How Sondheim Found His Sound</a></i>, took a lot of his harmonic tastes from French composers, including Ravel, as well as from film composer Bernard Herrmann (who would be in my own Top 10). Herrmann loved the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_major_seventh_chord">major/minor seventh</a> (the opening chord of <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G0yaSd0A-U">the <i>Psycho </i>theme</a>, which you can hear all over <i>Sweeney Todd</i>; spelled in C, you'd play C Eb G B-natural). From his French influences Sondheim took a love for sevenths, ninths, and elevenths, even thirteenths—odd-numbered chord extensions which, if you add them up, often form whole other chords, schmeared on top of the root chord (try C E G in the left hand, Bb D F; you could call this a C11, or Bb over C, though to make it truly Sondheim-y, take out the E on the bottom). Sondheim's harmonies, true to his <a href="https://nevalalee.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/stephen-sondheims-three-rules-of-writing/">less-is-more aesthetic</a>, can also sound stark rather than full, subtractive rather than additive: As I noted in that parenthetical, he often avoids the third of a triad so you can't quite place whether a chord is major or minor, instead layering it with a jagged 2 or a 4. The result is a suspended, or sus, accompaniment figure, a nervy, open-ended chord that is arguably his signature sound (think of the opening of <i>Company</i> or <i>Pacific Overtures</i>, to just name two examples). It's a tic that, while Sondheim executes it brilliantly, has become something of a musical theatre cliché, as <a href="https://howlround.com/slushy-face">Dave Malloy has noted</a>.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">In any case, the throughline here, as always in <a href="https://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-private-canon-major-minor-mbombela.html">my favorite music</a>, is harmonic adventurousness, singularity, flavor. And to my ears Sondheim and Weill, in particular, sound related, cousins in off-kilter tunesmithing. Consider this great Sondheim film theme. Maybe it's the chamber jazz chug of the orchestration, but this sounds sneakily, smokily Weill-like to me:</span><br />
<iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xU5i69ne9V0" width="560"></iframe><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Sondheim's contemporaries, Kander and Ebb, were obvious Weill-o-philes; his influence is quite naturally all over the Weimar sounds of <i>Cabaret</i>, and they have acknowledged his influence in all their work. Sondheim's longtime collaborator in pushing the musical theatre forward, Hal Prince, was such a Weill fan that he helped created the misbegotten, neither-flesh-nor-fowl Broadway fan-fic show <i>LoveMusik</i> (in which, for the record, I found <a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2007/05/weill-bodies.html">much to admire</a>). But it turns out that not only does Sondheim not acknowledge a debt to Weill. He is a non-fan, and has expressed that distaste in no uncertain terms. In a scathing footnote in Swayne's book, he reports this exchange, from a 2003 interview:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">SONDHEIM: I never liked [Weill's] stuff except for </span><i style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Threepenny</i><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">, and some of his American stuff I like. There's a rumba version of "Girl of the Moment" in </span><i style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Lady in the Dark</i><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">—I mean, I like so little of his stuff I can pick out the pieces I like—it's the theme that goes with the lyric [Sondheim sings]: "Hoping I'd discover some wonderful lover." And that about covers it. What I love about </span><i style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Threepenny </i><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">is how harsh and dissonant it is. I like it when it's played by a small band. But outside of that, Weill's musical language is anathema to me.</span></blockquote>
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">SWAYNE: Anathema?!</span></blockquote>
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">SONDHEIM: Well, in the sense that I don't like it. I mean, anathema like those fruity chords with the added sixths. They make me come all over queasy.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><i>Okay</i>. That's some strong stuff. While Terry Teachout has helpfully pointed out that Sondheim probably <a href="https://twitter.com/TerryTeachout1/status/1261622253378248705">does not mean "fruity" as an anti-gay slur</a>—"it's more of a wine term," as <a href="https://twitter.com/TerryTeachout1/status/1261622423113338880">he put it</a>—this quote hit me like a ton of bricks. To know that Sondheim hates Weill is a bit like hearing your parents fight in the next room. (Or maybe it's analogous to the weird frisson my friends and I felt when we read one songwriting hero, Randy Newman, <a href="https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/randy-newman-isnt-kidding-105561/">diss another, Elvis Costello</a>.)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Years later I had occasion to reach out to Sondheim for a story I was writing about <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/theater/23weill.html">concert revivals of two musicals Weill wrote with Maxwell Anderson</a>, <i>Lost in the Stars </i>and <i>Knickerbocker Holiday</i>. I already knew of his distaste for Weill's music, but I was curious—given that Sondheim's shows are often cited as examples of experimentation with form at the contested boundaries of the musical and the opera, a la Bernstein, Blitzstein, and Weill—if he had any thoughts about the two shows I was writing about. I couldn't use his response for the story but it's relevant here:</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I know the scores well, having seen the original <i>Lost in the Stars</i> (my favorite songs being "Big Mole" and "White Man go to Johannesburg," if I remember the titles correctly), and I know <i>Knickerbocker Holiday</i> through recordings (going back to the original 78s). But I'd rather not comment, as I'm not as big a fan of </span><span class="il" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Weill</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">'s songs as others are, and I wouldn't want to offend people. Also, I don't think </span><span class="il" style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Weill</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">'s American shows are experimental in any way (it's the actual songwriting that accounts for the unusual, quasi-operatic feel), except for <i>Lady in the Dark</i>, all of which wouldn't be helpful to your premise.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">So yeah, that's a more gracious, non-argumentative diss than "anathema." And "except for <i>Threepenny</i>" is a big exception, right? I can hang onto that. Also taste is taste, whaddya gonna do? Sondheim's capacious, tendentious <a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/2012/01/01/selling-it/">lyric books</a> proved he's got his opinions and he's sticking to 'em.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I couldn't leave this there, though. Slur or not, that "fruity chord" comment still stuck in my craw. I don't have a lot of Sondheim scores lying around, and I only have limited time to take apart all of his songs. But one score I do have a copy of is one of my favorites of his, <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-heart-knows-words-disguise.html" style="font-style: italic;">Pacific Overtures</a>, which I love especially for its harmonic affinity with 20th-century French or French-adjacent composers (De Falla was one of his main inspirations for its harmonic sound). Accordingly there are lots of sus chords (they basically underpin all of his towering masterpiece, "Someone in a Tree"), ninths, and the like. I was about to give up when suddenly, staring right at me from the midst of the spare, lovely "There Is No Other Way," I saw it and cried out, vindicated, "I caught you!" It's in the song's exquisite B section, under the central word in the phrase "the bird sings" (at 1:55 below):</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I mean, can it be a coincidence that that searing, yearning harmony—which I had the privilege of hearing the song's original singer, Alvin Ing, reprise in his inimitable tenor in a <a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2017/04/next.html">1998 revival</a> at East West Players—is among my favorite moments in all of Sondheim's music? The Bard of Turtle Bay may have felt queasy about employing that "fruity" chord here, but he sure did save it for a big payoff. Or maybe he just prefers <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJlBsr27Od0">not to do anything twice</a>?</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Footnote: Randy Newman later <a href="https://pitchfork.com/features/interview/7535-randy-newman/">reversed himself</a> on <a href="http://www.elviscostellofans.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1647#p23380">Elvis Costello</a>.</span><br />
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Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-39203436282386939092020-05-18T08:17:00.001-04:002020-05-18T08:17:14.713-04:00Flashback: Rich Media<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">When I first arrived in New York City 15 years ago I didn't land a full-time job right away—it took me more than a year before I landed one writing web features for TDF—but among my freelance gigs was writing previews for a program company called Encore Magazine, which had accounts with both BAM in Brooklyn and UCLA Live (and still owes me money for some of my work, if memory serves). For that outlet I got to talk to Kronos Quartet's David Harrington, Sydney Theatre Company director Robyn Nevin, Marianne Weems of the Builders Association, playwright Rinne Groff.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">I also found myself interviewing then-<i>NY Times</i> critic Frank Rich, who had hung up the theater beat a dozen years before to become a popular op-ed writer, and was doing a public appearances tour that included UCLA. Minus the contemporary references to Bush and Jayson Blair, it feels like much of his critique—of the dumbing down of media, alternative facts, etc.—could have been printed yesterday. As I republish that interview here, I've bolded one paragraph that jumped out at me now, about the response of artists in hard times. I think you'll see why.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">(I will only add that though this interview was conducted quickly over the phone, Rich graciously wrote me a thank you note, and years later when I was flailing a bit, agreed to meet with me and give me some career advice. He told me I should try to diversify my coverage—write about anything other than theater, if I could, just to expand my options. Oops!)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Without further ado...</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><b>Encore Magazine, November 2005</b></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">by Rob Kendt</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">A critic is not always critical. Even though his 13-year reign as <i>The New York Times</i>' chief drama critic earned him the unaffectionate appellation "The Butcher of Broadway," Frank Rich was as fervent a champion—of Tony Kushner, Stephen Sondheim, Michael Bennett, John Guare, Richard Greenberg, among many others—as he was a scourge.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">These days, however, Rich is very much a critic, in that word's other, more polemical connotation: As an op-ed columnist for the <i>Times</i>, he has used his bully pulpit to excoriate the country's cultural and political right wing, whether it was ganging up on President Clinton, politicizing arts funding, getting behind a Biblical movie with ostensibly anti-Semitic sympathies (<i>The Passion of the Christ</i>), or, most recently, taking a nation to war on faulty intelligence. As such Rich has joined an anti-Bush Administration chorus at the Times that includes Paul Krugman, Bob Herbert, and Maureen Dowd.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">At his upcoming talk at UCLA Live, Rich is likely to touch on these issues, not to mention on the topic of the theater in America, on which he still keeps an eye. But his central theme, he said recently, will be on the radically evolving media landscape and what it means for American democracy.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"I'm going to talk a lot about the way the media culture has changed, to create an alternative vision of reality that doesn't correspond to reality as we know it," Rich said, previewing his talk. From cable news to the Internet, a plethora of outlets now delivers news and entertainment in such a feverish cycle that the well-established journalistic practices of thorough and sustained reporting, Rich feels, are being ignored or compromised.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Of course, the response of many conservative bloggers, not to mention a network like Fox News, is that they are simply countering the disguised "liberal" bias of the mainstream media with their own undisguised perspective.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"I don’t buy the premise," Rich replied. "Obviously <i>The New York Times</i> and <i>LA Times</i> have left-of-center editorial boards; the <i>Wall Street Journal</i> has a conservative editorial page; <i>Washington Post</i> has a centrist editorial page. But reporting is really separate in those organizations. It's crucial to me that news organizations try to stick to reporting—always fallible, but still objective reporting. I'm less concerned about the seeming and somewhat fake conflict between liberal and conservative media than between news media that try to give you objective reporting, and another kind of media, which overheats the atmosphere, turning news into entertainment."</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">He admits, of course, that "there's always been an entertainment aspect to news. As George Clooney's film <i>Good Night, and Good Luck</i> shows, when Edward R. Murrow wasn't going after McCarthy, he was interviewing Liberace. But that kind of dumbing down has been ratcheted up in the past decade by the explosion of all kinds of electronic media."</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"Weapons of mass distraction," Rich called the products of this new media marketplace, giving credit for the pun to "one of my favorite writers from L.A., Larry Gelbart." That phrase implies a level of intention. Does he think there's a conscious attempt by media companies to keep audiences and readers so distracted by tabloid news, celebrity titillation, and political shouting matches that they never ask more serious questions of their elected leaders? Or is this just a case of untrammeled media supply meeting insatiable lowest-common-denominator demand, which happens to converge with the wishes of the powerful to remain unaccountable?</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"The jury is out," Rich said. "I would argue it's probably a bit of both. But convergence is the more likely scenario. The consolidation of the media plays a role, and we're still learning to what extent the interest of media companies determines this."</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Rich works for a media company that has sustained some blows to its integrity, from the Jayson Blair scandal to the Judith Miller saga. More recently, the <i>Times</i>' introduction of TimeSelect, a paid subscription service that charges $7.95 a month or $49.95 a year for op-eds that were formerly available for free, including Rich's, has generated its share of controversy.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"TimeSelect was a business decision—no writer was consulted on that," Rich said. "It's way too early to tell whether it's successful or not. I approve of the principle. Organizations like The New York Times, which spend an extraordinary amount of money on news reporting, have to figure out a way to pay for that. If the <i>Times</i> can't have any income, then we'll just have bloggers. There's nothing wrong with blogs, but on the other hand if we don't have extensive reporting, we're not doing our job."</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">One medium that consistently rises to the occasion despite long financial odds is the theater. Even on the heavily commercialized and corporatized Broadway circuit, losing money is the norm, not the exception. It's no surprise, then, that the stage is still one place that alternative voices emerge.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><b>"If you look at history of American theater, it has always—more perhaps than any other form in America—been activist at times of national trauma," Rich said. "In the 1930s, during the Depression, the Group Theatre and Orson Welles' Mercury Theatre did very political theatre, not only about the economic situation but about race and the rise and fascism. And way before Hollywood started doing it, issues like Vietnam were raised on Broadway. It happened again with the AIDS epidemic, which was particularly traumatic for the theatre. That was one of the things I noticed when I started reviewing theater: The people I covered were literally dying, and the theater responded."</b></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Now, with another unpopular war in the headlines, theater is responding with everything from the Off-Broadway revue <i>Bush Is Bad</i> to David Hare's Iraq-themed <i>Stuff Happens</i>. One reason for the proliferation of topical theater is practical: "The theater has less of a development process. You can pull the trigger faster with a play than you can by making a movie or writing a novel."</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">The other reason is one this professional opinion shaper can admire unreservedly.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"In none of these periods has the theater changed the world," Rich said. "What's moving about it is that theater people tried to use it to change the world. That impulse seems not to die."</span></div>
Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-80214523275106915222020-04-30T01:15:00.000-04:002020-04-30T01:15:03.015-04:00The Private Canon, Vol. 2: Major-Minor "Mbombela"<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-size: x-small; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><i>Cross-posted from my music blog <a href="https://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-private-canon-major-minor-mbombela.html">Train My Ear</a>.</i></span><br />
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">With the music I cherish most, it’s the sound that matters first and above all. I don’t just mean sound in the purely aural sense—i.e., the timbre of the instruments, the resonance of the voices, the dynamics and tone and pitch. These are not unimportant. But </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">harmonic content</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> is the real substance of music to me—the chords, basically, and the mysterious ways they work together to create something more than the sum of their notes. Harmony is as elemental to the meaning and potency of music as color and shape are to visual art, or time and space are to theatre and film, and it is the thing my ear, and my soul, most hungrily seeks out and clings to. The unique harmonic sound worlds of <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2017/06/my-ears-hear-something.html">Weill</a> and <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2013/01/modere-tres-franc.html">Ravel</a>, for instance, are what put them at the top of my pantheon, </span><span style="font-family: "arial"; white-space: pre-wrap;">as much or more than their brilliant orchestrations or compositional technique</span><span style="font-family: "arial"; white-space: pre-wrap;">. And harmonic fluency or daring or pungency, whatever you want to call it, are what draw me, initially and decisively, into the orbit of any artist, whether it’s Joni or Jobim, Rameau or Rihanna.</span><br />
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<span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">All of which is preamble to attempt to explain my abiding love for “Mbombela,” the opening track on the 1965 collection </span><span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Evening-Belafonte-Makeba-Harry-Belafonte/dp/B00004SNG7">An Evening With Belafonte/Makeba</a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. I happened upon this as an LP in the wake of Paul Simon’s ecstatic </span><span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><a href="https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/paul-simons-amazing-graceland-tour-98898/">Graceland</a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><a href="https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/paul-simons-amazing-graceland-tour-98898/"> tour</a>, which was arguably as important as the record itself, as it introduced his fans (including me) to two South African musical giants, trumpeter <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Masekela">Hugh Masekela</a> and singer <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam_Makeba">Miriam Makeba</a>. </span><span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">An Evening</span><span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> is misleadingly titled, as it’s not a live record and features only two duets between Belafonte and Makeba, who mostly offer reverent solo renditions of traditional tunes in Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, and Swahili, backed by choral arrangements not unlike the <a href="https://www.britannica.com/art/isicathamiya">isicathamiya</a> </span><span style="color: black; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">later made popular by Ladysmith Black Mambazo. “Mbombela” is one of the duets, which means it has harmony in a more basic sense—that of two voices entwined.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "arial"; white-space: pre-wrap;">The song also has an intrinsic harmonic power both delicate and searing. One key reason it stands out is in its departure from the mostly-major-key world of popular and traditional South African music. (I remember Paul Simon telling the slightly condescending but apparently true story of how guitarist </span><span style="font-family: "arial"; white-space: pre-wrap;"><a href="https://www.songtexte.com/songtext/paul-simon/the-story-of-graceland-as-told-by-paul-simon-g63fae667.html">Ray Phiri introduced a relative minor chord</a></span><span style="font-family: "arial"; white-space: pre-wrap;"> into the song “Graceland,” a rarity in South African music, in an imitation of something he’d heard in Simon’s other music.) "Mbombela" starts with an achingly subtle guitar ostenato that hovers with a ghostly glow throughout, with four chords topped by a D: G9 (essentially Dm over a G), a Csus2, G9 again, and a D major.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Over that Belafonte begins with a 7-note melody marked out mostly in fourths, at the heart of which is a very strange, almost microtonal shift from Bb, which over the G chord forms a minor-key sound, to A, over the C chord—a 6th interval that evokes C’s relative minor (Am). Sixths are famously smudgy, ambiguous chords; they were a favorite Weill’s and are a tic of Elvis Costello’s, among countless others (as I detailed </span><a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2009/09/pleading-sixth.html" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">in this post</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">). Between that odd G-minor over a G9 in the guitar, slipping into a C6 (with a discordant D, or suspended 2nd, atop it), we’re already in thick harmonic territory.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">When Makeba comes in, she sings a lot of fourths and fifths over Belafonte—bright, splintery intervals that catch in the ear. And then, her keening rasp complementing his duskier rasp, she both sweetens and sharpens that minor-major chord change, singing a B natural over Harry’s D, for a sunny major G chord, only to drop to the G over his Bb, a passing minor cloud, but oh what a mark it leaves. Her final slide down to an F gives us a glimpse of G7, but then hangs over the next chord, creating the sound of a C11 (or, more precisely, with Belafonte’s A and the D suspended over the C in the guitar part, something like a D-minor chord over a C). That is some seriously stacked harmony! And damn if it doesn’t wound the ear in the best possible way.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I knew that “Mbombela” meant “Train Song,” because the record sleeve said so and you can hear it plainly in the chugging rhythms and the “Shuku, shuku, shuku” refrain and the winding accordion solo—this is literally a “choo choo” song. But it’s not a cheery railroad chanty but a version of “Wenyuk’umbombela,” a protest song by </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_Duru" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Welcome Duru</span></a><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> about the trains that carried migrant workers long distances to work in apartheid South Africa. And while I discovered many </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEK9nKl4VF0" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">other</span></a><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAB1sBXKvuw" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">lovely</span></a><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> </span><a href="https://jisarecords.bandcamp.com/track/mbombela" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">renditions</span></a><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> online, none has quite the intoxicating chord voicings of the Belafonte/Makeba version. My research tells me I should attribute these to arranger <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Gwangwa">Jonas Gwangwa</a>, who clearly resonated with the aching melancholy of the song’s lament, </span><a href="https://worldlisteningpost.com/2019/06/03/soweto-gospel-choir-freedom/" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">“The train is departing,”</span></a><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> and found an ideal musical—which is to say a harmonic—expression for it.</span></div>
Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-82427454956618148742020-04-22T23:37:00.001-04:002020-04-22T23:45:23.889-04:00The Private Canon, Vol. 1: Ven Bernabe y Lamento Jarocho<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: x-small;"><i>Cross-posted from my music blog <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/">Train My Ear</a></i></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">In my decades of listening to and thinking about, and occasionally making, music, I’ve had some widely shared crushes and obsessions (Beatles, Jimi, Eilish) and joined plenty of fervent cults (Yes, Costello, Sondheim). But I’ve also developed what I think of as my private canon—deep cuts or relative obscurities that I rank among my favorites but which don’t seem commensurately well known or highly acclaimed. Tunes like Peggy Lee’s </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loTh79Z0OXA" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">“Sans Souci”</a><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"> or Dylan’s </span><a href="https://vimeo.com/141291136" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">“No Time to Think,”</a><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"> or the Harry Belafonte/Miriam Makeba duet </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXV_dip-HNs" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">“Mbombela,”</a><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"> or a wild punk waltz called </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MamkQbZREKA" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">“Palindrome”</a><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"> by the Ophelias, or the entire catalogs of English guitar goddess </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Hatherley" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Charlotte Hatherley</a><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"> or Texas gypsy jazz combo </span><a href="http://thewickedstage.blogspot.com/2010/09/friday-music-post-gypsy-yodel.html" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Café Noir</a><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">...I could go on like this all day. These are the songs I loved putting on mixtapes for friends back in the day, songs I wish someone would make a hit by covering or dropping into a popular movie.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Or blog about. Many or most of the songs I love I couldn’t possibly get away with covering myself, and my moviemaking dreams were put out to pasture even before I finished film school 30 years ago. But I can apply my critical ear and pen to them here, as I’ve done for a series of <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/search/label/Formative-album%20replays">formative album replays</a> and other assorted music. As the hours of social isolation stretch ahead, I plan to do just that.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I’m going to start with a favorite I’ve taken for granted for 25 years and just recently made some new discoveries about—and how often can you say that about a beloved song?</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I went through a Latin music phase in the early ’90s, inspired after a woman I briefly dated mentioned in passing that she liked salsa dancing. That was enough to send me to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritmo_Latino">Ritmo Latino</a> to snap up some cassettes (yes, cassettes), including some cherished Tito Puente joints and a Celia Cruz/Sonora Matancera hits collection, <i><a href="https://www.discogs.com/Celia-Cruz-y-La-Sonora-Matancera-Tesoros-Musicales-20-Exitos-Originales-/master/1602635">Tesoros Musicales</a></i>. The woman and I soon parted ways, but I was left with some lifelong companions. I’ve already written about my love for Tito’s <a href="http://trainmyear.blogspot.com/2013/02/thrilling-array-of-savage-passionate.html"><i>Tambo</i></a>, but the Cruz/Matancera tape had a lot of great stuff on it too (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__GrYyEGeE">“Pulpa de Tamarindo”</a> is a particular favorite). For me the real keeper, by a long shot, is “Ven Bernabe,” three-and-a-half minutes of mysterious perfection, alternately sinuous and punchy, with the rhythmic equivalent of an earworm in its title phrase—a hard clave variation with its strongest accent on the 4—and a resolute refusal for much of the song to land on a strong downbeat. Though it has the horn blasts of classic son montuno and the angular piano filigree of Latin jazz, they don’t follow the usual patterns, to my ears at least; they keep eluding capture, even as they spin their own fascinating nets. This persists even after something curious happens exactly halfway through, at 1:45: The song shifts down to a slower gear for some ballad-like verses, only returning to the springy opening riff for the last 20 seconds or so. Before we go any further, here it is:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8BGMNguJNqI" width="560"></iframe><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Until last week I hadn’t looked under the hood of the song or checked its lyrics. I discovered that it first appeared in 1959 on the album <a href="https://www.discogs.com/Celia-Cruz-Accompanied-By-Sonora-Matancera-Cubas-Foremost-Rhythm-Singer/master/972759"><i>Cuba’s Foremost Rhythm Singer</i></a>, and that it is not one song at all but a mashup of two: “Ven Bernabe,” by Santiago Ortego Gonzalez, a Cuban composer who also wrote another Cruz/Matancera song, “De Cuba A Mexico”; and “Lamento Jarocho,” a bolero by the legendary Mexican troubadour Agustín Lara.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Mexico is a relevant connection here, as well as what I would call a certain race consciousness. While “Ven Bernabe” seems to be about an ornery malcontent who’s broken up a “fiesta” of “los negros” (the “barracon” to which the singer calls him was a term for barracks holding Black slaves), “Lamento Jarocho” is an ode to the “bronze race” of Veracruz, who perhaps not coincidentally gave Mexico its preeminent folk music, son jarocho. Lara’s lament is far more sympathetic than the harsh street cry of “Bernabe,” lifting up an “an entire race full of bitterness” that is nevertheless “born brave” enough to “suffer all (their) misadventures.” While I’m not versed enough in Latin American colorism or the intra-racial dialogue around Celia Cruz’s Afro-Cuban heritage to speak of this authoritatively, there is clearly a Gulf-of-Mexico exchange, a bit of folkloric cross-representation, going on in the marriage of these two songs, and it goes deeper than its musical stylings. You can get some sense of it here, in a later concert Cruz did in Mexico with the Dominican bandleader Johnny Pacheco. When she breaks into “Lamento” (at 2:00), you can hear applause of recognition from the Mexican audience:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wn2bocoV4X4" width="560"></iframe><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Throughout a career spent mostly in post-revolutionary exile from her native Cuba, Cruz was a kind of ambassador of the Americas—not only of music from Cuba, but of sounds circulating around the Gulf of Mexico from throughout and within the African Diaspora, fused with Indigenous and colonial musics—and in this sense she was clearly one of the great <i>American</i> artists. It turns out that “Ven Bernabe” isn’t just a banger that happened to catch my ear—it may be among the finest artifacts of that unique ambassadorship.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">In my research I turned up this great broadcast version:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jRenzYcArFo" width="560"></iframe><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">I was able to find only one recording of “Ven Bernabe” by itself, without “Lamento Jarocho” fused to it, from a 1981 record by Leo Soto:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/v0rpplL8wc0" width="560"></iframe><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">This cover of the Cruz/Matanera arrangement, by Federic y Su Combo, embellishes both the piano and vocal parts, divertingly if with diminishing returns:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VTtpi0-v_n0" width="560"></iframe><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">As for “Lamento Jarocho,” this is the lachrymose Lara original:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Zk8e9QnhWPI" width="560"></iframe><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">And a popular, big-bandish version by Toña La Negra:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xF_uYycVhN0" width="560"></iframe><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;">Bringing it full circle, this “Lamento” by Orquesta Aragón is strongly in the Cruz/Matancera vein. "De Cuba A Mexico" indeed:</span><br />
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Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829734.post-19165954788115648132019-11-06T08:00:00.000-05:002019-11-06T13:23:25.713-05:00“The haunting nature of an idea, vehemently expressed”: The complete Will Arbery interview<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3stoAB3lLTZ4kaVl6BMHDIJ0MmmJ333KtFDwN-9NHGJMioUgnWNxN5Ia1BjyvSTB0zjWVO4HBOqapcVOQ3i-PN3CYtUkK514f2DvqD6ETiW9H_8sQ-SHdyVxAf803c0kkGhFB/s1600/will-arbery-photo-credit-korde-tuttle.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1600" data-original-width="1200" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3stoAB3lLTZ4kaVl6BMHDIJ0MmmJ333KtFDwN-9NHGJMioUgnWNxN5Ia1BjyvSTB0zjWVO4HBOqapcVOQ3i-PN3CYtUkK514f2DvqD6ETiW9H_8sQ-SHdyVxAf803c0kkGhFB/s400/will-arbery-photo-credit-korde-tuttle.jpg" width="300" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Will Arbery (photo by Korde Tuttle)</td></tr>
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<span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Like </span><span style="font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">August: Osage County</span><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, Will Arbery’s play </span><a href="https://www.playwrightshorizons.org/shows/plays/heroes-fourth-turning/" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Heroes of the Fourth Turning</span></a><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> is much, much better than its clunky title. Also like </span><span style="font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">August </span><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">it’s a veritable feast of a play about a white American family, drawn intimately from its author’s life and observations, though in this case it’s not primarily a blood-related family he puts onstage. Instead he sets it on the back porch and yard of a home in Wyoming, where four 20-something alums of a Catholic college there meet up after a party to compare notes on how they’re faring, and their erstwhile professor, Gina<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>who is based on Arbery’s mom, Virginia Arbery, an actual professor at Wyoming Catholic College<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>shows up later on to take stock. Danya Taymor’s production at Playwrights Horizons has been </span><a href="https://www.show-score.com/off-broadway-shows/heroes-of-the-fourth-turning" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">justly lauded</span></a><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> for its peerless cast and tonal range, which encompasses high-flown debates, fugue-like flights of language, bristling sexual tension, and as much political and theological grist as any play since Kushner was in his heyday.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I sat down a few weeks ago with Arbery for <a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2019/11/01/playwright-will-arbery-restless-catholics-heroes-fourth-turning">this story in </a></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2019/11/01/playwright-will-arbery-restless-catholics-heroes-fourth-turning">America </a></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2019/11/01/playwright-will-arbery-restless-catholics-heroes-fourth-turning">magazine</a>. Like many Catholics who’ve seen and enjoyed his play, my </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">America </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">editors hoped I would suss out Arbery’s own religious and political commitments. Though he wouldn’t reveal them to me (a liberal Protestant, for the record), we nevertheless had a rich conversation about his work and his relationship to the white, conservative, Catholic culture in which he was raised.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The following interview has been edited and condensed (but only slightly!) for clarity. Not sufficiently conveyed here: the laughter that punctuated much of the conversation, even or especially on the most serious topics.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I know you grew up in Texas. Which part? Was it Plano?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That’s an unfortunate thing<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>people assume I’m from Plano now because I wrote </span><a href="http://www.clubbedthumb.org/productions/2018/plano/" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">that play</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. I grew up in Oakcliff in Dallas</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. Where are you from?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I’m from Phoenix. And just to lay my cards on the table in regard to themes we’re going to talk about: I was raised a Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is basically evangelical-adjacent, politically if not theologically. But then I went to Jesuit high school and had my world opened up. I didn’t become a Catholic, but I was deeply influenced by the </span><a href="https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2018/12/07/brideshead-revisited-changed-my-life-can-it-work-its-magic-downton-abbey" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Jesuit approach to the social gospel</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, and to an ethos of exploring and questioning.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That was the exact kind of Catholicism I was siphoned away from. It sounds like a Catholicism I could get behind.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">How would you describe Catholicism you did grow up with?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I mean, it was Roman Catholic. It was very informed by my parents’ work. They both teach; </span><a href="https://wyomingcatholic.edu/person/virginia-arbery-ph-d/" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">my mom teaches political science</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, political philosophy, and </span><a href="https://wyomingcatholic.edu/person/dr-glenn-c-arbery-ph-d/" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">my dad teaches literature</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. Both of them sort of thrive in great books curriculum. So there was a lot of literature: Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Dante, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, up through Melville, Faulkner. Building this Western canon.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">So, a literature-steeped Catholicism. Is there a certain Catholic order or tradition your family identifies with?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">We hopped around to different parishes in Dallas. I did go to a Cistercian prep school from 5th through 12th grade, run by Hungarian monks who'd fled the revolution in 1956. And their life was sort of bottled up with Bernard of Clairvaux. But my family followed the Vatican, kept up with the pope. My family were good Catholics, and were sort of skeptical of anything on the fringes, like charismatic Catholics.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Did they go so as far as preferring the Latin Mass?</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">My parents wouldn't take us to Latin Mass. But because my sisters all went to Catholic universities, they would have friends who were really into the Latin Mass, and they would go. My parents would be like, “Oh, I see you're going to the Latin Mass…” There were different levels of intensity, I would say.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Were they skeptical of Vatican II?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I didn't grow up with a whole lot of skepticism of Vatican II. Or if there was skepticism, they didn't convey that to us. They really followed the pope. They were non-schismatic. They were very skeptical of schisms, or any rumblings of schisms.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>So mainstream Catholics, but on the conservative side. I would say that for me, the Jesuit brand of Catholicism I was exposed to was a kind of an intellectual playground where we could try out ideas</b><span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;"><b>—</b></span><b>it felt like it was okay to ask anything or address anything. There was total confidence that God was in charge, so we weren't threatened by atheism or pop culture or by the larger world. We could talk about it all.</b></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I would say our Catholicism did feel a little bit more threatened by all that than what you're describing. Even in the response to this play, I'll come across responses in Catholic cultural circles, and people are looking for clues<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>basically clues about my soul, I would say. The question of whether I go to Mass or not, whether I'm lapsed or not, as some sort of indication of...</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Of what the play means, is trying to say.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">And that sort of response, that sort of myopia, just immediately sent me back to the feeling I had in high school<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>in the play I call it the panopticon, like you're being watched.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You have to declare a side.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Right, you can't just question without an initial declaration.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Which is what your character Kevin tries to say to Gina, the professor: You say you want us to question, but you all want us to come to the same conclusion, really.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Right, so any sniff of not getting to that conclusion<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>the questioning actually gets shut down and the debate stops, because suddenly the unholy has entered the sphere, the secular has entered it somehow. At a certain point I remember feeling very lonely in my questioning. Which is inevitable for anyone.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>The feeling that people want to know about your soul</b><span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;"><b>—</b></span><b>it's touching in a way, but also a little scary. When I read Rod Dreher’s piece about your play in </b></span><a href="https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/will-arbery-heroes-of-the-fourth-turning/" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The American Conservative</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>, it really reminded me of the way people who have long felt underrepresented onstage</b><span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;"><b>—</b></span><b>people of color, gay people, immigrants, trans people, people of lesser economic means</b><span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;"><b>—</b></span><b>the way they respond when a good play is written about them, by someone who’s part of their culture. They feel very represented, they feel </b></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">seen</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. There's a version of that happening with conservatives and Catholics and your play.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">This is something I've been thinking about a lot. First of all, I have to say: I can't help but point out that there is a bit of irony in this thrill of representation from people who tend to be either mildly or vocally annoyed when other kinds of representation happen. And I think it's a little overblown, the idea that these are characters we never see. We've seen so many Catholics and so many Christians, and so many conservatives<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>they have been represented for a long time. I think that something else is happening here that goes beyond representation. That's why I sort of still feel called to exist in this space<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>my mom called it the fissure space. I am in that fissure space right now, and I feel responsibility to<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>it's weird, I feel called to deny both sides a full, complete understanding of<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>yeah, my soul. Because both sides are clawing for it, like, what does he think?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I wonder if I could ask how much calculation you put into which arguments go into which character’s mouth, and what tone they take. The pro-life argument that Teresa makes, for instance, sounded so strident to my ears, but Rod Dreher quoted it approvingly in his article.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I think that gets to the heart of what is actually going on with this piece. It's basically a mirror. In their responses to it, people reveal themselves. It's as much about what they don't object to as what they do, and as much about what they notice as what they don't. I think what's happening, in large part because of Teresa, is that things are getting said more bluntly than they usually get said. And whether that thrills you or terrifies you says more about you than it does about me.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Your play does feel like a big idea play, where people argue out their differences. A lot of plays I admire, by Shaw or Brecht or Kushner, say, are polemical plays, dialectical plays, where even though they take in many points of view, what they’ve done in part is built an argument. You've portrayed an argument, certainly, but is your play making an argument?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">If it is, it's an argument for something more mysterious. Maybe the simplest way to put it is that it's an argument for listening. But the play was designed to linger in people's minds long after they saw it, to create conversations that couldn't be resolved in one post-show drink. I'm not providing a diagnosis, I'm not providing an answer<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>you won't find an easily articulable conclusion. But that's not to say that I don't think that there's a real shape to it. It goes beyond words for me, but I feel it<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>I feel the shape of that piece. I know how it's working viscerally. Even with the arguments, I'm not someone who likes arguing.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Really?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I like listening. And I'm interested in the animal nature of debate and the way ideas can take over a body, and what talking for a long time very fast does to a body, what listening does to a body. These are the things that interest me more, and I sort of have to cultivate a level of delight and curiosity in the nuances of these ideas that hadn't really been there before. My goals with this play were more primal than they were intellectual, at least at first.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Still, you put a lot of meat on the table with this play. And folks like Tony Kushner, who also have characters arguing all sides of things onstage, are pretty clear about their politics outside their work. I’m not trying to pin you down too hard here, Will. But the magazine I’m writing for wants me to at least ask where you stand.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I guess I just wonder what that question...I'm just so suspicious of it.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Do you identify as a Catholic person?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I don't think I have any choice.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Another way to address this: With many plays based on a playwright’s life or worldview, you can often tell which character onstage sort of stands in for them. With yours, I really didn’t feel like any of them were </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">you</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">No, they're not.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">So you really were a listener.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I think that if you are a listener, truly, and you're listening more than you're talking, and if you don't want the focus to be on you that much, it's inevitable, I think, that… </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">(15-second pause.) </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I think that listening is what I'm offering to everyone, and arguing for. Catholic conservatives ignore that call at their own peril, that's how I feel about it. And that's how I always felt growing up; there wasn't enough listening to what the other side was actually saying.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Right. When you say this play is in favor of listening, we liberal New York theatergoers receive that as, "Oh, you mean we have to listen to all these conservatives." But you also mean </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">they're </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">not listening to each other, or to the world outside their bubble.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah. I would almost argue that progressive publications are modeling a better kind of listening than is happening at conservative publications. Why can't conservative publications go see </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4hWaHg6b98" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">A Strange Loop</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> with the same level of openness and willingness to be challenged that progressives had going to my play?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It’s a fair point. But I think the conservative response is, they’re already inundated with culture they feel is hostile to their values.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">But are they really? Everyone's inundated. We live in a beautifully complicated world, and there are so many people in it. I think what's happening when they say that is, they're not being inundated by the people, they're being inundated by what they see as an agenda, and they're not actually </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">listening</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. Those things that they're supposedly being inundated with are being categorized before they even have a chance to be observed by the viewer's soul.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Right, there’s a feeling of threat, that if you let in too many ideas, if you're open to all that, it’s a slippery slope. Why go see a play in which gay people are fully human characters if you already have decided, and have an ostensible faith commitment, that says they can’t be?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I would just say<span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>I mean, I get it. </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That just sounds like fear to me. It doesn't sound like an actual Christian mode of being. Aren't we supposed to care about each other? I don't know. I mean, I know very intimately<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>they worry that an agenda is being forced upon them, that they are being forced to, as it says in the play, not just tolerate but affirm something they think will ultimately lead to the destruction and collapse of their faith and the institution. Sort of like "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie."</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">But really, how strong is your faith if you feel it can't withstand the world it’s supposed to be saving? If it can’t face the world, what is it even for?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">This is part of what has been so<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>what you're witnessing in real time right now is part of what has been the entirety of my life, this sort of toggling back and forth between these two ways of seeing the world. That's probably why I get so touchy about the church question, because it seems to me that whatever I answer, it's: “Okay, if he's arguing for listening, if he's someone who apparently listens, let's see how that filters into his life.”</span></div>
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjycBuVAcIoIhDu_BZbtFppcLRuWZpZmFj_gaNbH4cSMvggtYcc5_CaR3sSSPISd2SBQO2WHIwLw5ch4rJjKxgD22q9C8ywInOcY3EOhcaP6_HiQPygggm6Zg660SiYR3iPCKbp/s1600/heroes3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1067" data-original-width="1600" height="425" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjycBuVAcIoIhDu_BZbtFppcLRuWZpZmFj_gaNbH4cSMvggtYcc5_CaR3sSSPISd2SBQO2WHIwLw5ch4rJjKxgD22q9C8ywInOcY3EOhcaP6_HiQPygggm6Zg660SiYR3iPCKbp/s640/heroes3.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">John Zdrojeski, Jeb Kreager, and Zoe Winters in <i>Heroes of the Fourth Turning</i>. (Photo by Joan Marcus)</td></tr>
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<b style="font-weight: normal;"><br /></b><span style="color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">One thing </span><a href="https://www.americantheatre.org/2019/10/17/tim-sanford-not-adverse-to-being-perverse/" style="text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Tim Sanford</span></a><span style="color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-weight: 700; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> thought I should ask you: You’re 30 now, and this is based on conversations that must go back many years. So why this play now?</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It just takes a while. The first full-length play I ever wrote was about a priest going to confession, and the arc of that piece was this very torturous process of him finally just saying the words, "I'm a homosexual," and all the ways he dances around it and distracts from it, diverts from it</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. So I've been interested in writing about Catholics and those structures from the very beginning.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I think this play was something I had in me. It really came out of my experiences growing up in the house that I did, where they would always have students over. But also going to the boys school that I did, and the experience of sitting around a firepit late at night and hearing the competitive one-upmanship of provocative conservative ideas. To be honest, the initial idea that this play came from was going to be something called </span><span style="font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Douchebag</span><span style="font-family: "arial"; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">, about just a bunch of guys sitting around and saying these horrible things. It took years for it to dawn on me that the much more provocative idea was to approach it with significantly more grace and love. And yet that feeling was what I was after, of sitting in the dark, and what the darkness does to an idea and the way it floats above your head and sort of oozes into your body<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>the haunting feeling of that. The haunting nature of an idea, vehemently expressed. </span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Haunting<span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; font-weight: 400; white-space: normal;">—</span>that’s a good segue to ask you about the supernatural elements in your work. There are a lot in </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Plano</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">. In this one there’s that loud feedback noise that comes in unexpectedly at various times. I know that Justin first says it’s his generator, then admits he has no idea why it happens. Can you talk about what that’s supposed to represent?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Just dramaturgically, that noise functions as a sort of extremely aggressive, seemingly random antagonism and contradiction. It also has the effect of yanking us out of the potential of solving this here on this night. It's like: No, you're not going to get to reach a consensus. Even if all five of you got really close to consensus, that noise would somehow come in to mess that up.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Beyond that, everything I write is a ghost story. Within an hour of people in my family getting together, at a certain point it will start becoming about ghost stories.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Literal ghost stories?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Like, truly real stories, things that we've experienced. Stories from people that we know; this thing that happened that we can't explain. It's such a part of the fabric of the way that we communicate and love each other<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>it’s through the unexplainable, through these sort of disorienting messages from an invisible world.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Are you talking about actual dead people communicating from the beyond, or synchronistic coincidences, or what?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">The noise in the play for me is the perfect example of something that<span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>you know, when my sisters or parents saw that, they didn't bat an eye. It's like, “Yeah, that checks out.” The example in </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Plano</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> would be the red ribbon that sinks down the staircase. It's a real thing that happened in my family: It was going down step by step, tracing the outline of the staircase, in a way that just didn’t make sense. </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That's sort of links back to Emily's thing at the end, when she says, "We love pain, we love it." It hurts us to have these things that we can't explain, but we almost don't want them explained, because we love it.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">When the professor, Gina, shows up later, she looks at these four stragglers and wonders whether the college has failed in raising up good Catholics. Do you feel like it’s failed, and do you intend that as a larger critique of Catholic institutions, even the church itself? Like, is it raising good people or breaking them?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's important to note that Emily asks that question of Justin: Are they the weird lingerers? Justin says, “I think this school makes 99 percent great people, and I’m so heartened tonight seeing how everyone ended up, happy, healthy, humble, building families.” I think there is a sense that these are four characters who, for whatever reason, are not following that very Catholic model of starting to build a family within the first couple of years of graduating undergrad. A vast majority of their classmates have started that work, and here we are with, for four very different reasons, people who have not started that family building. I would never say that that's what they should do: “Well, if they just started building families they would all be fine.” But I do think that might be what the church and the school has modeled for them. So the fact that they're not contributes to their feeling of isolation and despair, and makes their energy go into those strange other places that we see them putting it</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I think this play, which doesn't get talked about a lot, is so much about motherhood and the woman's body and the way that the church sort of has real provenance over their bodies, and the effect that that has on women. And also fatherhood, and the ways men feel called to uphold this<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>to be the kind of man who can build a family, who can be the strong head of the household. All of that stuff is so alive in this night, and is sort of the unspoken link between everything that they talk about and everything that they're obsessed with.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I was thinking when you said motherhood, you were talking about Gina, who’s based on your own mom and is sort of a mother figure to these four characters.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I mean, that's part of it.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">But the link to the pro-life argument is what you're talking about, right?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah, and the argument that Emily and Teresa have about abortion; and the conversation that Kevin and Teresa have about the Virgin Mary; and Gina's ultimate takedown of Teresa, hinging on this idea of motherhood being the way white Western civilization will continue, and the pro-life movement being linked to that. Some people have said that the play is about the dangers of repression, and I don't think that’s actually what's going on. I think the restraint in the play is actually quite charged and sexy<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>in the room, we were like, “This restraint is so hot.” I think it's actually more about the fear and the desire of creating a family and that level of commmitment. What are you willing to die for? What are you willing to put your body on the line for? Obviously Teresa has taken up this idea of a coming war, and she's using that language. I'm not saying Gina is right when she says, “You're turning your fear of motherhood into false machismo.” But I think that for them, the standards and expectations that they're living under<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>that's what's happening with these people.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">So are you personally pro-life?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Well... </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">(11-second pause.)</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"> I don't want to make it that easy for people. </span><span style="font-family: "arial"; white-space: pre-wrap;">Look, I grew up with seven sisters. And this is what I'll say: My work is so much about women trapped in and upholding a system that's designed to limit their autonomy. Part of the reason I don't want to lay out really clearly, tempting though it might be, what my positions are and what my personal life is like is that part of what this play is trying to do is to topple some of our dependency on that as experiencers of art in this day. Can we get back to a place where we're experiencing the thing itself on its own terms, rather than looking to the creator for clues about where exactly it stands politically, and whether it falls into some sort of party line?</span></div>
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEid6hbyLeXErw0CTfU0_3OfSUPSO16i2AcYhi5-qFbssI-01vrs9nj8FaDi-bFiTTAlBIYFMXQp2aENZqO9WskjTbvPSKGAb_42gqk8KNKlaifg_3UREgllKG52sWffbT4qq_Mr/s1600/plano.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="401" data-original-width="600" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEid6hbyLeXErw0CTfU0_3OfSUPSO16i2AcYhi5-qFbssI-01vrs9nj8FaDi-bFiTTAlBIYFMXQp2aENZqO9WskjTbvPSKGAb_42gqk8KNKlaifg_3UREgllKG52sWffbT4qq_Mr/s1600/plano.jpg" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Susannah Flood, Crystal Finn, and Miriam Silverman in <i>Plano. </i>(Photo by Elke Young)</td></tr>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Did you ever consider the preisthood?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">My mom certainly wanted me to become a priest.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I know firsthand that any serious, bookish, religious boy gets told that they should consider some sort of pastoral calling.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I never seriously considered it. But there have been times when I've thought it would be great to have that structure.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Was there a point after Catholic high school that you started to question your faith, or see other alternatives? Was it at Kenyon College?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">No, I would say that happened before. I became an enormous film buff, starting in eighth grade. It was the Criterion Collection and Roger Ebert's great movies books and Pauline Kael. It was cinema.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Why did you end up writing plays? Do you want to write movies and TV as well?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I do want to. Plays I didn't quite anticipate. It was sort of spiritual. It was a charge in the room, and an experience of breath, and sort of a challenging calm<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>like, the event of calming down and listening did actually have a real sort of primal recurrence in my body. It reminded me of Mass. I just felt totally drawn: I have to be a part of that. I was acting and directing, and I'd been writing the whole time, I really wanted to be a writer and couldn't find a way to make it all fit. And then when I started writing my first plays, everything fit together. I also just felt like, to be honest, it was the hardest one. That's the hardest one to pull off. So if I can do that...</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's a fundamental craft. I have had great communal experiences in a movie theater, though that’s really about the audience, not primarily what’s onscreen.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah, I've had great experiences in a movie theater. But something about theater for me<span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>it’s, yeah, I'm writing, but more than that I'm creating an experience. It's entirely about, what are we going to do to the people that come into that room?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Does your family like the play?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah. What I said to them was, this was a really difficult offering, but thank you for receiving it. It is ultimately a gift. But it's a difficult gift. My dad said he felt a little soul-scoured<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>that was the word he used. Which...I'm not trying to scour anyone's soul!</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Do you think your play gave him that panopticon feeling you mentioned earlier?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yeah, I do think that my parents were a little taken aback at how closely I'd been watching and listening.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I’ve read that you also shared a draft with them before they saw it.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Yes. I shared a draft with them.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Did they give you feedback, or ask you to change things?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">There were references or ways that I could make it deeper that proved really helpful.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">So they were good literary notes, not so much personal objections.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">They had questions around how much whiteness gets talked about. I think that that's been really interesting. It's been something we've started to be able to talk about a little bit.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">I know that </span><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/21/a-play-about-the-nuances-of-conservatism-in-the-trump-era" style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1155cc; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: underline; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Vinson Cunningham</span></a><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b> keyed in on how some of the arguments hinge on race, and I guess this is a matter of, like you said, earlier, what you see and what you don't see. I did not hear race as a major theme in the play</b><span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;"><b>—</b></span><b>or perhaps I just factor that in as part of the noise of our current conversation.</b></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">It's not to say that it's the whole thing. But I will say in terms of, what's different about this night? One of the things that's really different about this night is that Teresa is talking about this, and it's something that doesn't get talked about and wouldn't get talked about in those circles. She's broaching it in a way that indicates that she has thought really deeply into it from the other side, as a progressive, so when she's talking there's a fugue state that she almost goes into<span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>and it's why Gina says, “You're one of them.” Because she’s seeing things from that perspective in a way that seems like the ultimate violation.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You mean the speech where Teresa says, “You call us racist, we'll call you racist. You call us white, we’ll call you black.”</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">And everything she says before that too. The way she's bringing up Pat Buchanan and Barry Goldwater, and saying, “Look, [race] is what it's always been about in [progressives'] eyes, and we have to start treating that as true.” Basically she's admitting that she has accepted the critique, and now we have to come up with our rebuttal. We can't just ignore it anymore, we can't just pretend that it's not there, that it's going away.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">But is she embracing the full white supremacist agenda?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">She's not quite doing that, but she's saying that she sees their logic and has not found a way to rebut it, and is sort of owning that, yes, we are trying to save white Western civilization; we don't want our civilization to collapse. That's where motherhood comes back in, because in a sense each woman becomes a warrior for that cause and the man has to be strong for civilization to survive.</span></div>
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjzoZMFXXQsidSL52BhEuTxYQkHQdZhUTrS6gyo3aj53fR19ovKE5qBMgvIXF4z_YuIa_KOhLRAmpzYfgIcyyBe_6Oh7o9P-__vlrTe_3to3IvS8sZ3cLHY0I3gtpQojGdC9xk5/s1600/heroes.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="396" data-original-width="600" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjzoZMFXXQsidSL52BhEuTxYQkHQdZhUTrS6gyo3aj53fR19ovKE5qBMgvIXF4z_YuIa_KOhLRAmpzYfgIcyyBe_6Oh7o9P-__vlrTe_3to3IvS8sZ3cLHY0I3gtpQojGdC9xk5/s1600/heroes.jpg" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Zoe Winters and Michelle Pawk in <i>Heroes of the Fourth Turning</i>. (Photo by Sara Krulwich/NY Times)</td></tr>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You know, for several decades there has been the understanding from white Christians of conscience that the right thing to do is to not think in terms of color, to think we're all the same, we're all in this together. I would argue, one of my main arguments would be, that no, in fact, the Christian thing to do is to acknowledge your whiteness in this country and to spend some time thinking about what that means, and how that affects your fellow citizens. It's a very simple proposal, but it's one that makes people very uncomfortable. There's a sense in which we should feel very energized and comfortable in navigating that level of guilt<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>inherited guilt is sort of the name of the game, and yet there's a way in which that's sort of pushed down. I would just challenge everyone to ask, why? Why can't we talk about this? Why can't we refer to ourselves as white? What are we afraid will happen when we do that?</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">These are all things I'm going to be writing about for a long time. There are a lot questions. Part of the reason I don't want come down too clearly in terms of my own identity is that I really hope to have the ear of both sides, as much as I can. Who knows? Maybe I'll get really sick of writing about, you know, things of this world. I might just want to write a mystery. But right now I want to be able to navigate both worlds. It feels really important.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">You don’t want to be pegged as a conservative writer, a progressive writer.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">That also links back to the "we love pain" speech that Emily has. So many of us claim to wish that things weren't such a binary, that there weren't these clear lines in the sand. And yet we love that battle, it's such a symbiotic relationship. So much of who we are now is defined by what we’re not: "At least I'm not them, not like that." I think really all I'm trying to do is to blur those lines a little bit. I think it makes people really uncomfortable, but all that it is is love. There's a real desperately dangerous lack of love happening right now. The nation doesn't love itself, and we don't love each other. We love our factions, we love our tribes, but we don't love each other.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;"><b>What you said earlier about inherited guilt reminded me that we often talk about slavery as America’s “original sin.” But if Christians took that analogy seriously we would own that it’s in us, like sin</b><span style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;"><b>—</b></span><b>that we’ll never fully overcome it and must constantly be repenting for it.</b></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Exactly. All I'm asking is that we look at it with the same level of humility that we look at original sin in the religious context, if that's what you believe. </span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #262626; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">Your play doesn't go directly into the red/blue arguments we seem to be having every day, but it does capture the feelings I know I feel when I’m arguing with my red-state family and friends. Like, does someone need to win this argument? Can we still love each other when we disagree so much? You’ve put these arguments at a slight remove, in a world that feels a little exotic for most audiences, especially New York audiences, but it’s captured with such specificity that it really feels immediate.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">In sixth grade, I remember my favorite teacher at the school walked in, and before he said anything, he just wrote in chalk on the board, in big cursive, "Attention to detail is the key to success." As soon as I saw that, I thought, that's what I'm gonna do<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , "arial" , sans-serif; white-space: normal;">—</span>just be really, really detailed, because I think in that specificity is where you find...</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">They also say "God is in the details."</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: transparent; color: black; font-family: "arial"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">So that's the answer to, "Do you go to church?" God is in the details.</span></div>
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Rob Weinert-Kendthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015688507553252146noreply@blogger.com0